Foreign Language Training & Use

I would be interested in hearing from anyone with experience in learning and/or using one of the languages from recent conflict zones (i.e. Dari, Pashto, Arabic). In particular, was their a significant difference between what was learned in a classroom vs. the real language in country? How well did the language training prepare you? What was the benefit of knowing the language? What would you suggest about language learning for someone going to the area(s) you were in?

Thanks in advance for your feedback, everyone!

I think language learnt in a classroom is only good to a certain extent. What is learnt in a classroom can be rapidly lost after the class is over until you find a medium to continue to practice.

There are 2 things about practicing language in a conflict zone- will you be outside the wire and/or how much will you interact with the host nation population?

If you will be living on a govt. installation, then you will probably have a better chance to practice languages like Hindi/Nepali/Tamil/Bengali/Tagalog just by talking to the guys working at the gym,etc. That is unless you will have opportunity to use the language for your work (or posted to a GCC country where you can venture out and interact with locals).

I think an excellent way to continue your studies after you class is over is to watch movies/news and listen to lots of music in the target language. Basically language study is a very personal and dynamic thing and a continual process, there is no formula so you have to find out what works for you. I am fluent in 5 languages and I still have to study before each proficiency test to make sure I do well. I have lived the 3 countries to which 3 of my languages were native to, and those are my 3 best languages, so it will definitely help if you get a chance to practice with locals. Good luck!

To your question about classroom vs. real language- there is generally a difference in how the language is spoken, for example, rural vs. urban, regional accents and dialects, slang etc.

Welcome aboard! To your questions, and as parvati mentioned, a lot will depend on your job and your motivation to immerse. Living on a FOB in the current risk-averse US Army environment will limit your ability to get out and really work with the host nation in the target language. If you're lucky enough to be outside of a HQ bubble and really able to get out and about, then school, at least the US Defense Language Institute, will have prepared you well.

I've taken DLI courses (Dari) both times before I deployed to Afghanistan (Kabul). 4 month short courses for Afghan Hands immediately prior to deployment. It's enough to be able to converse in basic discussions in basic tenses (simple present and subjunctive, intransitives, active/passive sentence construction, negative conjugation, past progressive, present perfect, future progressive, etc...) but not in any work-related relevant vocabulary. 4-8 months isn't enough in my limited experience to build enough vocab to deal with heavy COIN issues. Basic security things, police/military ops, etc...and of course normal vocab at the 1+ level, but not governance, COIN, political, economic vocab.

But back to your point, training prepared me well to break the ice with Afghans, get them comfortable with my friendliness and openness, and show them that I'm making an effort...which is very important towards relationship and trust building. Not much more capability than that though. And remember the Dari (at least in DLI) will be the formal, academic language versus the spoken, colloquial language. That'll be amusing for locals to hear you speak but it won't be any kind of roadblock.

Ultimately, how useful it is will depend on you. How much you study outside of school and how much you push yourself to immerse once you get there (if you're able to). But the formal military schooling and syllabus at DLI is constructed well to prepare you to start fairly capably in the target language and build from there.

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Originally Posted by parvati

I think an excellent way to continue your studies after you class is over is to watch movies/news and listen to lots of music in the target language. Basically language study is a very personal and dynamic thing and a continual process, there is no formula so you have to find out what works for you.

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When I was learning Spanish abroad I remember that having the opportunity to watch English language films with Spanish subtitles was especially helpful to me.

FWIW, one of the principles of immersion programs is that the combination of more exposure and less time improves learning outcome as opposed to more exposure alone (i.e., 40 hours of exposure and/or instruction over the course of a week will yield better results than 40 hours of exposure and/instruction over the course of a month).

People often forget how quickly languages change.

Long long ago I worked briefly on an "interactive laser disc" (yes, that long ago) training system that had been commissioned by the State Dept for instruction in Tagalog. They needed a white guy that spoke Tagalog, and I was around. The script had been prepared in the US by a woman who was apparently the senior and most respected teacher of the language in DC. She'd apparently been teaching there for over 20 years.

When we actually looked at the script, it turned out to be virtually unintelligible to anyone who spoke the language in its modern incarnation. Filipinos who read it had vague memories of their grandparents talking like that. For me (having picked up Tagalog on the back streets of Cubao) it was essentially a different language. Any diplomat who actually learned from that script would have been, in effect, learning a dead language.

I wonder if any similar events occur in other languages, particularly those that are spoken over wide areas and with significant local variation, and with languages that are rapidly evolving...

Thanks to all who have responded. I found the info on subtitled TV programs, DLI courses and Tagalog quite interesting. I have some background in Arabic, Persian and, having lived in Turkey now for a number or years, Turkish. I used subtitled TV programs when I was first learning Turkish, and I discovered that there are some dialects of the language that are quite different from the standard language that I learned.

As for Dari, does the DLI give any reason for teaching the formal/written language rather than the spoken one? I know that written Dari is almost identical to written Farsi, but that the spoken forms are somewhat different, but mutually intelligible. It would seem to me that in most situations in Afghanistan knowledge of everyday speech would be more useful than the written language.

Finally, which language is more useful in Kabul, Dari or Pashto?

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

It would seem to me that in most situations in Afghanistan knowledge of everyday speech would be more useful than the written language.

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My experience in doing coursework in anthropology is that classroom instruction in all languages was invariably in a different register than that which we wanted to be able to eventually use in day-to-day interactions. So we looked at what we were getting in the classroom as the base from which we were going to build as much as anything else. That inevitably results in some timesink when you get in-country, but there is a practical side to consider when dealing with language with which there is a lot of local variation (something I am sure you are aware of if you have worked with Arabic!).

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Originally Posted by Dayuhan

People often forget how quickly languages change.

I wonder if any similar events occur in other languages, particularly those that are spoken over wide areas and with significant local variation, and with languages that are rapidly evolving...

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Hey Dude !
Just recently with a trip to Congo I realized how backwards my Belgian French and Lingala were. Kids laughing at you is a pretty good sign you are speaking a dead language.

When I got here in 95 and my first Estonian teacher returned from the States and we had dinner together, she too realized that her three years in DC had left her high and dry with Estonian. She refused to believe that the student had now become the teacher. With less than 1,5 million Estonian speakers in the world, they still managed to evolve leaving their grandparents behind.

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

It would seem to me that in most situations in Afghanistan knowledge of everyday speech would be more useful than the written language.

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To echo Matt, better to concentrate on colloquial language and not worry about written... total different ball game for C2 speakers. Not to throw you under the bus or anything, but with four languages I reached real proficiency in country after about 5 years. That is to say, when they started to accuse me of being Finnish (which is a serious insult reserved for Russians) I knew I was there. Can't get rid of the accent, but can indeed improve on the grammar and speaking skills.

Stay safe Bro !

Stan

Same kind of issues regarding Hindi and Urdu. In the upper classes in Pakistan and India, people tend to speak a mixture of English and Hindi/Urdu. I can totally relate to Mr. Stan for being laughed at for speaking a more formal version of the language - “why are you speaking such pure Hindi like my great-grandfather/Urdu teacher/chai boy from some village”?

In Mumbai, they speak Mumbaiya – a pretty much crude street slang “gansta” version of Hindi (Dawood Ibrahim and Co. speak this kind of Hindi). If one were write a language test in the Mumbaiya version, they would totally fail the writing test and if one were to speak in DLI Hindi on the streets of Mumbai, they would be understood, but laughed at.

Like Mr. Ganulv said, there needs to be kind of a standardization, as you probably know Arabic from Africa vs. Arabic from the Gulf etc.

It is also the case with European languages. If you study classical Italian then good luck understanding people speak in Naples! Likewise with Spanish.

Having learned what is euphamistically termed Modern Standard Arabic in the Yemen I discovered to my horror in the Lebanon that most people thought I had emerged out of the dark ages (my skin tone completed the impression of my being a Yemeni interloper). I suppose it's analogous to the difference between Quebeci French and "proper" French!;) Even in Yemen the variations in colloquialisms and language usage varied from one region to another (esp. in the East) but also between North and South and even cities. MSA is a good place to start, then you really have to start learning:eek:

HOLY MOLY! Sorry, didn't realise that jpeg would end up so big...(that's what she said.....)

Again, thank all of you for your responses. I have found the issues of register and change over time to be equally interesting in Turkish. With speakers of non-standard (i.e. non-Istanbul) Turkish, for a long time they could easily understand me while I would struggle to make out what they were saying. Older speakers will often use words borrowed from Persian or Arabic while younger speakers will use words based on Turkic roots. However, vocabulary is often an idicator of the speaker's world-view. Leftists will often use "pure" Turkish words, even when they are not in common use, while those of a more religious bent will sprinkle their speech with more Arabic and some Persian, even when these expressions are equally uncommon.

Many of you seem to have a background in what (in the US at least) would be considered "less commonly taught" languages. Your reasons for learning are varied I am sure, but how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

I look forward to your responses!

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

Many of you seem to have a background in what (in the US at least) would be considered "less commonly taught" languages. Your reasons for learning are varied I am sure, but how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

I look forward to your responses!

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Not sure about the rest of us, but learning foreign languages was something I personally wanted to do. The FLPB back in the 70s was abysmal regardless of how many languages and to what levels you managed (about 250 bucks a month max as late as 95). Nowadays, the cap is a cool grand but only for languages the Army wants ! So if money is the deciding factor, then things just got better looking.

We’ve come a long way from the days that one had to take a DLAB to remotely determine if he/she was capable of learning a foreign language and even then, only if that individual’s MOS supported that need. We now know – very late in the game – that the occupational specialty is not so relevant. Probably lost hundreds of great linguists to a bunch of uptight Pentagon staff (that had not a clue what it takes to learn and maintain language proficiency).

BTW, even learning two languages in addition to English as a child, I failed the DLAB while I was in Korea. If not for my CO telling the examiner that I already started to speak Korean after two months in country and conversed with the Swiss daily, I was doomed to fail.

Other than cold hard cash and/or at least a real desire to learn, I have no clue how to motivate the current generation when it comes to learning a foreign language.

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Originally Posted by kotkinjs1

But back to your point, training prepared me well to break the ice with Afghans, get them comfortable with my friendliness and openness, and show them that I'm making an effort...which is very important towards relationship and trust building.

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The people in this discussion are mostly quite proficient in some other languages. I am not. For somebody like me kotkinjs1's point above is of supreme importance. It cannot be overstated. They know you are never going to be able to get much but they respect you for trying. Combine that with old fashioned gentlemanly behavior and most of the people you work with will be favorably inclined toward you. That, literally, can save your life.

Most people who go overseas won't get much beyond the "Donde esta el bano?" stage but even that level can be hugely helpful, especially when combined with the right attitude.

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

how would you try to encourage students today to study these languages? Many Americans seem to be a bit on the lazy side when it comes to languages where the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and/or script are noticeably different from English.

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I think one obstacle is that many Americans go through much of their youth, often their entire youth, without any serious exposure to a second language. In much of the world that's quite unusual... my 16 year old daughter speaks 4 languages fluently and sees nothing at all unusual or remarkable about that.

I've never seen any scientific studies on the matter and I'm certainly no linguist, but my own observations convince me that people who grow up with multiple languages, or at least have early exposure to multiple languages, find it easier to pick up languages for the rest of their lives. If you get to age 20 with only one language, you're pretty much screwed. It seems like if you get to a certain age with only one way of saying things your brain just locks down on that and has a very difficult time accommodating other ways of saying things. Not to say it's impossible, but the effort involved is far greater than it is for people who have experienced that flexibility from an early age.

My memories of French, German, and Latin are very rudimentary, but I think that having once been at least functional in all 3 made it much easier to pick up Cebuano and Tagalog.

If someone with actual expertise in the matter comes along and tells me I'm full of it I'll gladly concede the point... just how it looks to a rank amateur, albeit a multilingual one.

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Originally Posted by Dayuhan

I've never seen any scientific studies on the matter and I'm certainly no linguist, but my own observations convince me that people who grow up with multiple languages, or at least have early exposure to multiple languages, find it easier to pick up languages for the rest of their lives.

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It's like playing a musical instrument (or learning a martial art or style of skiing or a number of other skills): every time you know one more well,* the next one comes more easily. It is generally thought that children enjoy a full access to Universal Grammar which adults do not, but the evidence is not unequivocal in that regard.

*The caveat is well. Going on to the next one before getting a good grasp on the one you have started tends to lead to confusion.

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Originally Posted by ganulv

It is generally thought that children enjoy a full access to Universal Grammar which adults do not, but the evidence is not unequivocal in that regard.

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I find it hard to believe that American children have full access to any grammar at all, but that is perhaps just me being a contentious old fart...

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Originally Posted by Dayuhan

I think one obstacle is that many Americans go through much of their youth, often their entire youth, without any serious exposure to a second language. In much of the world that's quite unusual... my 16 year old daughter speaks 4 languages fluently and sees nothing at all unusual or remarkable about that.

If someone with actual expertise in the matter comes along and tells me I'm full of it I'll gladly concede the point... just how it looks to a rank amateur, albeit a multilingual one.

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Steve,
This article in the Foreign Policy Journal is right up your alley.

The author painstakingly describes and supports his experience and theories, which generally busts the myth about children learning faster. But he has a point similar to yours... exposure. A good read with some real funny bits !

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A survey of people working as professional interpreters would show that 80% of them graduated from less than five universities in the world.

None of them were children.

In conclusion, my theory is if an adult and a child attend the same number of hours of classes, the adult will learn faster. In practice, however, adults have lives. They are busy people, and studying is a kind of luxury, which generally takes second place to work and earning money and taking care of their family.

However, given the same number of hours of classes, an adult would learn a language faster than a child. The proof is Monterey Institute, Defense Language Institute, and Middlebury Language Program, all of which can take an adult student from zero to passing a college entrance exam in a foreign language in just one to two years.

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The article talks about learning in a classroom setting, where I would agree that adults would learn faster, largely because they have a longer attention span and can endure more classroom time. Take two adults and two children and put them in a foreign language environment without classes, my bet is the kids will be speaking the new language way before the adults, especially if they are playing with local kids.

When my oldest son was 4 we moved to a place where the prevailing language was one he'd never spoken or heard. He showed no sign of learning it for about 6 months, and then just started speaking it, no accent issues, just chattering away. It was like a bucket filling up and then running over. I can't say all kids learn like that, obviously, but it was an interesting thing to observe. There was no visible "learning process", no "what does this mean" or "how do I say that". I'd guess kids would have a hard time if expected to learn like an adult learns in a classroom, and an easier time learning by pure immersion.

I'd still be interested in seeing data on rate of learning a completely new language in adults that have been multilingual since birth vs adults that have been monolingual since birth.

My background is that I have several years experience working as a Linguist for the govt. I speak 5 languages fluently plus another 5, I barely speak and/or understand. The 5 that I speak fluently, I learned by the time I was 12. The other 5, I picked up here and there and put no hardcore effort to learn or improve and learning remains so very stagnant. I believe that if my only job was to play with locals and learn languages, then I would be able to learn new languages and gain fluency in a decent timeframe even now.

Regarding children vs. adult learning debate, I would say that learning how to speak a new language is much easier for children. However, after a certain point it is schooling (college/DLI/home study) that makes a person refined in a language, that is where the adult learning part comes in place. I picked up Italian in Italy during my high school years and when I was in college in the US, my Italian professors would always tell me not to speak/write in Roman slang and deduct points for that. That is where I think the adult learning is crucial. If a child lives abroad for 18 years, picks up a language just by speaking with people/watching television etc., that person will most probably speak fluently. However, unless they are reading books and writing a little, they will not be able to pass a 4+/5 level reading/writing proficiency test because those tests are hard and are at college level or at least high school honors level. So the testers will most probably not pass a person at a native level if one starts speaking a more street version of the language picked in back alleys or slang picked up in high school.

To Mr. Dayuhan's question about multilingual individuals learning a brand new language as adults, I would say, it is not as easy as learning while younger, one reason is definitely not having time to play with locals :-)

If all other things being equal, a hard-working, eager to learn monolingual and a lazy multilingual who doesn't put any effort are put in a class to learn a language with no prior exposure, I would think that the monolingual would fare better just by the sheer effort to learn?

I salute all of you who are leaning new languages and putting an effort, most specially if you didn't grow up in that linguistic environment.

Many thanks to all who have responded - I think some very interesting and valid (at least in my limited experience) points have been made.

- I have also found that people generally show more tolerance towards "ignorant foreigners" if the ignorant foreigners are making a sincere attempt to learn and use at least a little of their language. A little truly can go a long way.

- I did not begin serious study of a foreign language until high school, but I at least was able to take 4 years of Spanish, and become reasonably proficient. No doubt, I would have learned more had I started at a much younger age.

- Desire to learn and the willingness to occasionally make a real fool of yourself in public will also carry one far. While the public embarassment may be hard on the ego, it too can be an icebreaker.

- I think the point about learning one foreign language well making learning another one easier is also true. Clearly knowing Spanish well would make it easier to learn another Romance language, I think that it goes beyond that. My personal theory is that if you can make your brain accept the fact that the world can be described and categorized in some amazingly different ways, the next "map of the world" is easier, even if completely unrelated to the first foreign language learned.

In the context of small wars, COIN, etc. perhaps the question is how do you create, find and/or encourage the patience, mental flexibility and willingness to learn another language and culture as one of the bases for success?

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Originally Posted by parvati

...unless they are reading books and writing a little, they will not be able to pass a 4+/5 level reading/writing proficiency test because those tests are hard and are at college level or at least high school honors level. So the testers will most probably not pass a person at a native level if one starts speaking a more street version of the language picked in back alleys or slang picked up in high school.

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Probably true, but raises another question: do you learn a language to pass a test or earn a rating, or do you learn it to communicate with the local populace?

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Originally Posted by parvati

If all other things being equal, a hard-working, eager to learn monolingual and a lazy multilingual who doesn't put any effort are put in a class to learn a language with no prior exposure, I would think that the monolingual would fare better just by the sheer effort to learn?

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This lazy multilingual once learned a language by drinking palm wine in the shade with some helpful, loquacious, and equally lazy native speakers... and learned faster than some people who were sweating it out in a classroom (long story).

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

I have also found that people generally show more tolerance towards "ignorant foreigners" if the ignorant foreigners are making a sincere attempt to learn and use at least a little of their language. A little truly can go a long way.

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Yes

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

Desire to learn and the willingness to occasionally make a real fool of yourself in public will also carry one far. While the public embarassment may be hard on the ego, it too can be an icebreaker.

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Yes again

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

My personal theory is that if you can make your brain accept the fact that the world can be described and categorized in some amazingly different ways, the next "map of the world" is easier, even if completely unrelated to the first foreign language learned.

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That's pretty much my theory as well.

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Originally Posted by xf4wso

In the context of small wars, COIN, etc. perhaps the question is how do you create, find and/or encourage the patience, mental flexibility and willingness to learn another language and culture as one of the bases for success?

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Particularly when there's no way to know what language will be in demand next, when deployments are of limited duration, and in places where security concerns limit opportunities for immersion.

In your defense Dayuhan, I do not regard sitting in the shade drinking palm wine as the mark of a "lazy multilingual" - as long as the conversations were in the language you were trying to learn, the palm wine party is legitimate language practice. Perhaps DLI will consider adding it to their bag of tricks to encourage more rapid language acquisition...

I suddenly realized why I liked learning Estonian over Lingala... the social settings :D

We venture into an underground pub from the 13th century and drink beer and eat garlic bread and chicken wings :)

That should motivate most of our younger generation providing the Army wants Estonian speakers !

Mr. Dayuhan, I totally agree with you on both points. Learning a language is to communicate with locals and best way is though the play scenario (playing toys when younger, and drinking when older- and after a few, even the locals will start slurring and the linguistic barriers start wearing out).

I was trying to point out that the requirements that the testing that is conducted for linguists by the government (a lot of it outsourced) is skewed in disfavor for those who speak a more street version versus an academic version a language. It is not fair and I have not passed a language test in a certain language despite being fluent because of I spoke too colloquially. The tester was a total snob and none of that would have mattered in a deployed environment. Sometimes it is just based a who scores the test. The DLI website and the "helpful phrases" modules they have for various languages are not really colloquially accurate, you hear some words and think that people just don't speak like that.

Regarding the lazy versus the eager- I think we have to give some credit to the eager ones and like Mr. Xfswo said, attending wine parties is also work if you're trying to speak with locals. Unless there is a drive to learn whether it be through study, music/films or going to medieval pubs etc.etc.. without that will, I personally don't think one can get too far.

I am sure that most of you are familiar with Sir Richard Burton, the 19th century British explorer, linguist etc. In the 7 years he was stationed in India he passed the language exams for 12 Indian languages at the highest level. He described his method:

“I got a simple grammar and vocabulary, marked out the forms and words which I knew were absolutely necessary, and learnt them by heart by carrying them in my pocket and looking over them at spare moments during the day. I never worked for more than a quarter of an hour at a time, for after that the brain lost its freshness. After learning some three hundred words, easily done in a week, I stumbled through some easy book-work..., and underlined every word that I wished to recollect, in order to read over my pencillings at least once a day. Having finished my volume, I then carefully worked up the grammar minutiae, and I then chose some other book whose subject most interested me. The neck of the language was now broken, and progress was rapid. If I came across a new sound like the Arabic Ghayn, I trained my tongue to it by repeating it so many thousand times a day. When I read, I invariably read out loud, so that the ear might aid memory. ... whenever I conversed with anybody in a language that I was learning, I took the trouble to repeat their words inaudibly after them, and so to learn the trick of pronunciation and emphasis.”

Long quotation, but the method seems sound and could be enhanced with modern touches like mp3 players, the internet etc. He also encountered the problem of using the colloquial language versus the formal register in testing. So, Mr. Parvati you may take comfort in the fact that you are historically in good company, and in any situation where communication was essential, I would prefer your language skills.

I know of Sir Burton, but what is the name of that book?

Thank you for your kind words. It's Miss Parvati.

Hey Miss Parvati !

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Originally Posted by parvati

It is not fair and I have not passed a language test in a certain language despite being fluent because of I spoke too colloquially. The tester was a total snob and none of that would have mattered in a deployed environment. Sometimes it is just based a who scores the test. The DLI website and the "helpful phrases" modules they have for various languages are not really colloquially accurate, you hear some words and think that people just don't speak like that.

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Great point ! I attended a quick Estonian course at Inlingua in Arlington due mostly to having less than 13 weeks before deployment. With that I was sent to State's FSI for testing where I was very unwelcome. My test results at 1+ were insulting although the administrator was Finnish and refused to believe that I had studied for only 13 weeks (of a 45 week course). As my instructors were all real Estonians, they taught me to communicate in social situations, not recite a dictionary.

It would be very difficult for State to conclude that their 45 week program was inferior to a 13 week course right down the street. It has always been assumed that I got the short end of the deal.

Once on station, I would be faced with purported 3+ FSI graduates :D

Give me a break !

Regards, Stan

Miss Parvati & Stan:

I think, based on nothing scientific, that some people are just good picking up new languages. If that is true, how much of the success at getting fluent is due to that? How many people out there are just good at it?

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Originally Posted by Stan

My test results at 1+ were insulting although the administrator was Finnish and refused to believe that I had studied for only 13 weeks (of a 45 week course).

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It's the cases. :p Finns refuse to believe that Americans (or anyone else who wasn't raised speaking a Uralic language) can get the cases right.

Miss Parvati - My sincere apologies! I can only plead ignorance and my gender bias as regards to this site.

The quotation was from Fawn Brodie's biography of Burton, The Devil Drives, page 44. Unfortunately, she does not cite the source.

Carl - I agree, some people do seem to be naturally more able to learn languages, but I have seen some remarkable results from people who were just plain stubborn, the kind who are determined to put their head through a linguistic wall.

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Originally Posted by ganulv

It's the cases. :p Finns refuse to believe that Americans (or anyone else who wasn't raised speaking a Uralic language) can get the cases right.

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Hey Matt,
Actually, there is but one case ending more in Finnish than that of Estonian. As if that were of some comfort :rolleyes:

For some strange reason, Estonians can communicate with Finns, but Finns can't do Estonian.

Not too sure why we always get the bad rap as Americans especially considering the fact that most of us are not Indians :D So, why did our ancestors decide to dump their local lingo and go American ? Football :eek:

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Originally Posted by carl

Miss Parvati & Stan:

I think, based on nothing scientific, that some people are just good picking up new languages. If that is true, how much of the success at getting fluent is due to that? How many people out there are just good at it?

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Hey Carl,
I feel that it's more about a personal desire to do "it" than anything else. All four of us as children had basically the same means and foreign language background, but yet only I ended up overseas and learned foreign languages. Exposure then took its course with me.

I like this explanation but don't agree with the whole article. Have you ever taken a language aptitude test similar to the one at the link ? Bet you'd be surprised at the results.

Regards, Stan

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Originally Posted by Stan

For some strange reason, Estonians can communicate with Finns, but Finns can't do Estonian.

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This is the same gripe Portuguese speakers have with Spanish speakers. "We understand them, why can't they understand us!"

"I'm going town to," doesn't really cut it (translating from Finnish, "Menen kaupungille", to English).

So, let's just translate it as "I'm going town." That's perfectly understood from Hancock to Kowsit Lats - by every Hilltop Heikki who went Michigan Tech and became inginer. :)

To inject some scholarship into this Finnish-English discussion, I refer to the article by that learned Suomalainen American, Kent Randell, Finglish (Boston University, 2004) (yup, he's really a Rantala; see p.15):

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Impact of Finglish on speakers of English

Anybody who visits a heavily Finnish area of the Americas will report back that the thick brogue is unmistakable. Below are two examples of the Finglish accent on American English from two different informants. Although they originate in very different parts of the country, it is interesting to note how similar they are:

Finglish-English code switching from Fox, Montana:

"Paappa is vit his ractori butting the hein in da paana"
"I vould like to puy a bare of klopes (gloves)
"Dat boor peipi vas left on da seitvooki krying so muts"[57]

[57] Kujala, M. (e-mail). Request help with Finnish in America. E-mail (14 April 2004).

Finglish-English code switching from Chassell, Michigan

"Too pits" (two bits)
"Pig rout in mall ricks (big trout in small creeks)
"Ko dis vay tu akat peets" (Agate Beach) [58]

[58] Seppala, H. (e-mail). Request help with Finnish in America. E-mail(14 April 2004).

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and:

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Although my mother does not speak Finnish or Finglish, these constructions, unique only to Finglish, are part of the lexicon of my family and many others in Northern Michigan:
...
English
Go Ahead
Imagine
He is supposed to

Finglish
Go Hed
Maĵin
His poustu ...

Finglish-English
Go Head
Maĵin [as in Maĵin that? Or, Can you maĵin?]
He's poustu

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I immediately related to "Maĵin" and "He's poustu"; but "Go Head" threw me for a few minutes - until "Go Head, M***er F***er, take your best shot !" came out of some 50-year old, rusted brain cabinet.

We Hankooginlaiset are attached to our Finglish, as attested by its immortal monument (Randell, p.16):

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Local residents in Hancock, Michigan, are so attached to the Finglish influence on their language that a monument has been constructed in its honor. On highway US-41 the following sign stands at the top of Quincy Hill:

Attachment 1700

Fig. 2 Clyde Randell next to the Kowsit Lats sign in Hancock, MI.

Using the properties discussed in this paper, we can see that Kowsit Lats translates from Finglish to Cow$hit Flats [62].

62. This is perhaps the only sign in the United States to allude to an American cuss-word. When Wimpi Salmi approached the Houghton County Road Commission to construct the sign, he had to prove that there was in fact a cow pasture down that road. Beck, Julie Stevens (e-mail). Kowsit Lats sign. E-mail(14 April 2004).

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Leave it to Julie Stevens Beck (a nice gal) to tell us why that sign exists. Wimpi Salmi - I wooda neva dunk. And, a beer named Kowsit Lats, to boot.

And, from Suomi itself, 'Finglish' and the Finnish-American People (Fall 2008, Katri Mattila, Helmiina Munukka and Sanni Pulkki):

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This is how the folklorist Richard M. Dorson described the Finns in Michigan's Upper Peninsula in 1952:

The coming of the Finn has rocked the northwoods country. He is today what the red man was two centuries ago, the exotic stranger from another world. In many ways the popular myths surrounding the Indian and the Finn run parallel. Both derive from a shadowy Mongolian stock - "just look at their raised cheek-bones and slanting eyes". Both live intimately with the fields and woods. Both possess supernatural stamina, strength, and tenacity. Both drink feverishly and fight barbarously. Both practice shamanistic magic and ritual, drawn from a deep well of folk belief. Both are secretive, clannish, inscrutable, and steadfast in their own peculiar social code. (123)

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The local (Lake Superior and Minnesota) Ojibwe summed up the Finns in two words: madoodoowininiwag (sweat bath taking people) and omakakiiwininiwag (croaking frog people). :D

Regards

Mike

PS: excuse the lack of umlauts in "Maĵin" (same old issue with the editor). And, BTW, FinnFest 2013 will be held in Hankooki - Here's the agitprop page. The legal work was pro bono. ;)

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Originally Posted by jmm99

"I'm going town to," doesn't really cut it (translating from Finnish, "Menen kaupungille", to English).

So, let's just translate it as "I'm going town." That's perfectly understood from Hancock to Kowsit Lats - by every Hilltop Heikki who went Michigan Tech and became inginer. :)

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Hei Mikka,
As always, a thorough job on the details, and pics to boot :)

Ma lähen linna/linnale - "I go town to". However, we get to choose an over long ending (linna) or use the case ending (linnale) :rolleyes:

One of the reasons Estonians did so well with Finnish language was by watching YLE TV during the Russian occupation. Finns, for very obvious reasons, were not interested in Estonian (Russian monitored) TV. That and many Estonians came to Finland as refugees, and most of them assimilated pretty quickly.

I thought I fixed your problem with the umlauts ?

A little reprint from a 2007 post:

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The Origins of the Estonian Language

I just celebrated my fifth year in Estonia and my fifth fruitless year trying to figure out how to correctly speak Estonian. I mean really, it wouldnt be so bad if Estonians werent so smug about it. Oh, they will congratulate you on your good Estonian even if you can only speak a few words, but deep inside they really dont want you to learn it!

They are so happy with their secret code and you can see it every time someone asks you Oh, are you learning to speak Estonian? Then comes the sly grin, Youve got a snowballs chance in hell of learning our language. This is quickly replaced by a faked look of concern as they say, Oh, its a very difficult language, isnt it? I think after this, they go off and laugh uncontrollably and give high-fives to other Estonians, but I havent actually seen it happen.

I have decided to write an expos on the Estonian language. One time I sent my brother a tape of Estonian language and he asked me if Estonians have an obsession with sex. There is terviseks and ostmiseks and kasutamiseks, teadmiseks, parandamiseks and armastamiseks. All kinds of seks. That, plus the fact that after five years, little kids still laugh when I speak Estonian has made me decide to tell all. The real story behind why Estonian is the way it is.

A long time ago, about 1000 or 1100 A.D. there were three Estonian guys sitting around the campfire. Their names were Billy, Ray and Duke (bet you didnt know that these are real ancient Estonian names). It was wintertime and they were bored. Billy spoke first. You know Ray, what we need is a new language. Darn straight! said Ray. Talking this way is getting boring and besides everybody almost understands us. We need a language thats so crazy, so complicated that nobody will ever understand whats going on!

As the idea picked up steam, Duke piped up. Lets do it this way, that you cant say he or she. That way you wont know if youre talking about a man or a woman. Also, we have to think up names for people that give no clue to foreigners about their gender, names that change with the grammar so you never know what to call somebody. Ray nodded in approval Yeah, thats it. Then we can eliminate the future tense. Think of trying to ask someone out on a date when you cant say the right name, whether its a boy or girl or when it is going to happen!

Billy, the smart one was thinking in more technical terms already. O.K., lets make it this way, that when you learn a noun, you dont have to learn just one word but 14, and instead of just saying that you are going to or from something, you have to change the noun in some weird way. Now Ray was excited and spilled his beer. Yeah yeah! Andandthe nouns cant change the same way, lets make like, a hundred different spelling groups that all change in different ways! This appealed to Duke who added slyly, You want to make it real hard, a real nut-buster? Lets make it so all the adjectives change, too. In boring old English, you say five small, red houses, small, red houses and many small, red houses. Small and red always stay the same but in our new language? Whoa Nellie!

They exchanged high-fives all around and cracked a few brews. After that they started practicing how to say, Oh, youre learning Estonian? without busting up laughing.

Thats how Estonian came to be, honest!

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Some of the descriptions of the grammatical wonders of Finnish and Estonian sound similar to Turkish. However, despite the lack of gender in the pronouns I have rarely found it to be a problem.

What I have concluded is that Turkish (and I think this is true of most languages) are inherently "logical" - the problem for us as English speakers is that the "logic" of the other language is not necessarily the "logic" of English. This principle seems to be applicable to writing systems and cultures as well.

Is there anyone with any experience learning and using Pashto? I would be interested in any observations.

Thanks to all!

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Originally Posted by Stan

Other than cold hard cash and/or at least a real desire to learn, I have no clue how to motivate the current generation when it comes to learning a foreign language.

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One promising way to do so is providing overseas training deployments for people in the accessions pipeline. US Army Cadet Command has been pushing a program called CULP for some time which (if I recall correctly) had a stated aim of ensuring over 50% of the Class of FY2015 had engaged in some form of direct contact with a foreign culture before commissioning. [That was before budgetary cutbacks however]

I can only speak to the effectiveness of the program in promoting foreign language study on an anecdotal basis, but I had the chance to go along on a CULP Deployment and kept in contact with most of the cadets afterwards. A good amount who had no intention of taking foreign language courses before going on the trip expressed a great deal of interest in doing so afterwards.