Frigate and destroyer costs
I recently finished a blog post about using smaller ships to combat piracy and am having a bit of trouble coming up with the costs of the standard US Navy capital ships. The Littoral Combat Ships are pretty doggone expensive, judging from a Navy report about the program, but I can't find similar information for frigates and destroyers.
So if anyone else could point me to some good information I'd be grateful. For the Cyclone class patrol ships also; I have a ~$25 million figure for them, and though I have a .gov that says that's in the ballpark I wouldn't mind a more detailed program cost piece. :D
Thanks.
Frigate -- the smaller ones in the classic sense --
generally run from $350M to 1.5B or more, equipment and building nation dependent. Her's a list I got off the internet. It is from the "Canadian American Strategic Review" of Simon Fraser University in Vancouver. I picked it up a couple of years ago. Their web site is apparently down right now so I cannot see if they have newer figures. They seem reasonable to me.
Quote:
[2] Unit costs for naval vessels (especially when averaged) are notoriously unreliable there are simply too many variables and accounting practices. With that caveat in mind, the following are rough unit prices for the frigates mentioned in the text and the Single Class Surface Combatant.
Danish 1.5B Kr = $333M Cdn (Project Patruljeskibe)
FREMM 280M = $447M Cdn (French version, diesel powered)
FREMM 350M = $600M Cdn (Italian version, turbine powered)
Dutch 400M = $639M Cdn (De Zeven Provinciλn class)
(or up to 450M = $719M Cdn quotes vary according to source)
Spanish 400M = $639M Cdn (F100/Nansen class, prices vary)
Typ 125 550M = $878M Cdn (projected German Fregatte Klasse F125)
FREMM 550M = $879M Cdn (projected air defence version)
Typ 124 700M = $1.12B Cdn (German Sachsen class air defence frigate)
CF SCSC 1.06B = $1.70B Cdn (Single Class Surface Combatant)"
yeah that number kinda threw me for a loop too
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GC13
Wow. Those frigates are a fair sight more expensive than I had expected (though I may have forgotten to adjust for inflation when I checked the globalsecurity sourge). Thanks though, it's a big help.
And to Mr. Bob's World: Yep, that's essentially the argument I'm making: you don't need the big expensive ships when littler ones will do the same job for less money; this is hampered by the fact that our navy doesn't like to have smaller ships. Contractors would do nicely too... But I think a lot of people would argue that, politically, private contractors are bad juju.
As to that last bit
That's probably more so due to the fact they make great scapegoats for the agencies they are hired by when things start to get hot.
Seems like they would be better on accountability for the actions of their employees if that equated to more confidence in them by those that contracted them rather then what seems to be the norm of if something goes wrong they'll go to extraordinary lengths not to let it come out because doing so will almost guarantee large scale losses.
Just figure why would either of the two you mentioned want such a thing considering first time they actually shot someone they would probably find themselves up in front of an international war crimes commission.
Long and short contracting can provide a lot more for much less but in order to get that value from it you might be required to actually publicly acknowledge that value.
I don't think the Navy has any objection to smaller
ships -- it just that smaller ships have limited utility. They have little seakeeping ability, they're physically hard on the crews, their payload is limited, thus they have no stamina and require support from larger ships. They have to transported to theaters by other ships due to their short sea legs. There are far more minuses than pluses.
If you but a slew of them to 'fight pirate' now, what do you do with them after the pirate menace disappears or gets down to an acceptable level? Storing ships and recalling them to active service later is an expensive way to do business, that's why we don't do that much nowadays.
There are other problems with your plan. You're going to have to kill a lot of Somalis. Who's going to take the flak for that? You're going to haul some to Court -- where? Who's going to pay for that?
Mo-o-o-m! Entropy stole my helicopter operating
ship AND my life cycle costs... :mad:
However, they got mentioned and by whom isn't important. Good post, BTW, Entropy....:cool:
Nothing wrong with being a Hobbyist and Experts don't always get it right, GC13 -- however, while you're correct that Piracy will never go away, it can be brought down to acceptable levels. The best mechanism to do that is ashore, it is by the Somalis themselves.
It's not a question of fear or inability, it is a question of costs. Just as your small ship solution is not the best for grappling with Pirates. A big deck Amphib with a slew of Helicopters can provide far, far greater area coverage and do Pirates far more damage than a fleet of patrol craft and can do that at less overall cost in dollars. Plus those big ships and the birds have other uses, your patrol craft are pretty much purpose designed. Get rid of Somali piracy and then what do you use those small craft for? Latin American and Malacca Piracy? Don't think those folks want our help, not at all. We've been barging in where we aren't wanted for a long time but the world is changing and that needs to stop.
Back to Piracy off Somalia. The costs in human terms differ. For us, the big ship and Helo solution is far easier on people even aside from its significantly greater effectiveness. For the Pirate, it provide deterrence instead of capture -- capture requires trials and such -- and the captured folks will just be replaced by others. Deterrence is far cheaper than arrests. If you start a war with the Pirates, you're going to have to kill a lot of Somalis and you're going to make the rest of the world believe all its ever thought about evil America. That's a cost.
It's also a cost that will not lessen the problem. Some people in this world are like Yellow Jackets, they fly around doing their individual thing until someone gets too close to the nest -- then they swarm. Somalis are like that. You start attacking and you're going to have to kill an awful lot of Somalis and you still will not deter them. What will deter them is the consensus of their own Elders that the cost to the Somalis is not worth the benefits.
Destroy their boats from afar, that's a deterrent but it will not stop piracy. Capture their boats at sea -- same thing. The old dudes say 'Stop' to the young men and it will have to become a surreptitious effort as it was a few years ago, that will put it back down to an acceptable level.
Lesson(s) from the past overlooked?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Entropy
(Taken from) Piracy never has gone away - which leads me to ask: What has changed where new, smaller ships are suddenly so badly needed to fight piracy? When in history has such a strategy ever done much to impact piracy? In the long history of piracy, patrolling has never worked.
I am neither a sailor or historian, surely there is a parallel between slavery and piracy? Recently in the muted (UK) public commeroration of the Royal navy's anti-slavery patrolling - off West Africa mainly - much was made of it's effectiveness (I am sure there are references). Incidentally the RN did anti-slavery patrolling in the same waters as today's piracy between WW1 and WW2 - intercepting movements between East Africa and the Arabian pleninsula. IIRC the RN used frigates.
On less certain grounds I recall the Israeli Navy deployed far south in the Red Sea, to protect their shipping (mainly oil supplies?) and used small patrol boats, the Reshef class?
On reflection perhaps supplying local partners with small ships, akin to the coastguard type, would be of assistance and the richer nations could supply the "legs" and helicopters.
davidbfpo
(Also copied to the Somali piracy thread).