Jeff Cooper said danger, not variety, is the spice of life, so I'll take my chances if we get to meet.
I hope you both have a great dinner - how's the chow in Estonia?
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Does anybody remember when the custom of commissioned officers providing their own side arms fell out of fashion?
Not much discussion on this thread about Force Protection, or how increasing the numbers of habitually armed troops in CONUS garrisons improves the installation's Force Protection posture. Do CONUS garrisons face threats of similar magnitude as OIF/OEF FOB's? No, they don't. Having all the CONUS garrison troops armed as if they were deployed reeks of fear and makes Hassan's propaganda of the deed wildly successful.
Active-duty enlisted personnel should draw their government issue weapon from the arms room and carry it whenever performing duties the chain of command has determined are best accomplished while armed. Can't very well have the Other Ranks deciding for themselves which duties they will perform armed with their own private purchase concealed carry pieces and which duties they will perform unarmed.
Canoneer #4 - a few questions for you:
1. Would honoring state CCWs on military installation reduce the FP posture of those installations?
2. Does the fact that American police are generally armed mean criminals in the U.S. are "wildly successful"?
3. Doesn't the average American expect his armed forces to be armed? Would that average American have preferred an outcome to the Hassan attack of a enlisted soldier drawing his CCW handgun and stopping Hassan to the 13 dead and 40 wounded of the actual event?
4. If you'd been at the Soldier Readiness Center at Fort Hood in the room in which Hassan initiated the attack, would you have preferred to be armed or unarmed?
5. Do you think we've seen the last of "lone wolf shooter" attacks on military installations?
1. Honoring state CCWs on military installations could reduce the FP posture of those installations. Is the additional Antiterrorism/Force Protection rapid response capability afforded by soldiers carrying their own personal weapons concealed on post likely to result in more Hassan wannabes defeated or more soldiers killed or wounded by themselves or other soldiers?
2. The fact that American police are generally armed has nothing to do with whether active duty soldiers should be generally armed in garrisons in CONUS.
3a. I don't know what the average American expects. The American Armed Forces have a wide variety of machines with which to kill people and break things. Only the Army and Marine Corps arm most of their troops with individual weapons.
3b. Who really cares what the average American prefers? The Army is not a democracy.
4. If my preferences were a matter of major concern, I would prefer not to be there that day. Commanders decide where and when they want their troops armed. A disciplined force cannot allow large numbers of junior soldiers to pack their own privately-owned heat under their ACU's whenever they feel like it.
5. No. "Lone wolf shooter" attacks have always been rare, but not unknown. How rare are they, really, and how much nut roll should we go through to predict/prevent/mitigate them?
There are literally hundreds of links covering FP and Fort Hood. Having just recently performed FP for visiting Sailors and having tons of time on my hands to read through reams of regulations, I recommend some light reading on the current thread.
A very general overview placing blame and responsibility on the installation commander:
Military Operations
UNITED STATES ARMY TRAINING AND DOCTRINE COMMAND (TRADOC)
FORCE PROTECTION PROGRAM (FPP)
Stand-To
Fort Hood Army Internal Review Team
Scroll down to resources for the links
Interim Fort Hood Recommendations Approved
Then Army dot MIL
Protecting the Force: Lessons learned from Fort Hood
And DOD's independent review, which has some equally depressing and promising recommendations:
There's a every so slight recommendation revolving around Active Shooter Tactics and the lack thereof on bases. Sadly, the review concentrates more on identifying the threat and lack of communications as the problem.
I grew up near a SAC Base in Orlando,Fl. in the late 50's early 60's. I don't exactly remember when they stopped doing it but as part of the Base protection policy a certain number of their officers were required to be armed with a handgun at all times regardless of their actual assignment for that day. Reason being was if the Commies (a real threat back then) tried to infiltrate the Base and take it over there would some means to slow them down until a proper response could be mounted. Maybe a better policy would be to bring back something along those lines? Just thinking out loud.
Thanks Stan - hope the dinner went well. Appreciate the links. Have read most of the unclas .mil Fort Hood things I can get my hands on.
Obviously this CCW issue is only part, maybe a small part, of the question/solution (my view). But I think it is hugely important to soldier morale and warrior ethos. Besides the physical tragedy, some of the saddest things out of the Fort Hood incident were quotes of soldiers saying things like "at least if I was downrange (deployed) I could have defended myself."
DVC,
Dinner at the Argentina was great ! Huge grilled tiger shrimps and 250 gr of beef tenderloin :p
DOD's review showed some promise by at least recommending the active shooter program. Looking at both the LEO and Army reviews following attendance at the IMS Anti-Active Shooter Tactics course, this sounds like a step in the right direction without trying to simple mirror what is authorized off-post. I gather this training would probably serve the soldiers well in nearly any environment.
Thanks Stan - sounds like a delicious dinner. I think the Israeli approach to active shooters has a lot of merit - did some training with the IDF on related problems.
Just to stir the pot a little - the IDF allows the rough equivalent of CCW of personal handguns for qualified NCOs and officers and, in my experience, tends to deal with active shooter situations as a team effort of all armed people (LEO, military, civilian) in the area responding as quickly as possible to the situation.
Does this track with your experience of the training?
The experience I had with IDF instructors in Africa was similar. Their training concentrated on a potential D-Day and the Zairian Special Presidential Division mimicked nearly every aspect save perhaps respecting innocent civilians :D
Out of curiosity I checked out the current regs for Israel regarding weapons and found this.
Quote:
Firearms in Israel
Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
Hartford, WI 53027
Many have asked about the easy availability of firearms in the State of Israel, and whether or not they can bring their guns with them when visiting or settling there. Some have visited Israel, or have seen photographs of people walking the streets in Israel carrying firearms.Nearly everyone interested in the preservation of the Second Amendment in America points to Israel as proof of how ordinary citizens, armed and trained, are a deterrent to crime and terrorism. And it's true! However,a quick glance at the rigid gun laws in Israel will show that it has far stricter firearms laws than many people, including myself, previously thought. Enjoy reading the translation as much as I enjoyed translating the document!
In liberty,
Rabbi R. Mermelstein
Dude, this is a stretch, even for you ;)
This is impressive though...
Now why would a rational person even say Sierra like that?Quote:
Still, a member of the U.S. House Homeland Security Committee, Rep. Patrick Meehan, said in Washington that it looked like a terrorist attack. The chairman of the subcommittee that focuses on terrorism and intelligence added he did not have all the facts yet and was still being briefed.
Not sure about the latter :DQuote:
subcommittee that focuses on terrorism and intelligence
Heh, he even tried to compare concealed carry rights to those States that recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards.
Since we probably will never get Germany to approve Florida State carry permits in Frankfurt while riding on buses :rolleyes: Maybe we could get the Air Farce to participate in better force protection measures instead of piling onto buses, relatively on time, altercations with strange folks, etc.
Agreed on Germany recognizing U.S. CCWs. and I don't know anything about this shooting beyond the NYT piece. Should U.S.A.F.s crews carry (issue .gov) handguns? Probably be tough to get the countries they're traveling to to OK it. Seems like the European approach to violent crime is self defense is a no-go; better to be a compliant victim.
This whole scenario is puzzling. The German’s that patrol the airport are not some cheap private security apparatus and the conspicuous automatic weapons they carry mean business.
But yet, they were not paying much attention to the parking area surrounding a huge target. The Airmen were flying commercial and not permitted firearms… is going around. Huh ? Back in 2005 we flew from here to Frankfurt with our side arms and on the USAF transfer bus with us was an armed MP escort right up to our departure aircraft.