Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations

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Originally Posted by JarodParker

1) It would be absurd to discuss a conclusion that is not based on facts. How can it be thought provoking, if it’s not accurate? What if it the author just said “police in the US kill citizens at 1000 the rate…” What if he said, “100% of police officer are members of the KKK?” You have to have facts to be able to have an intelligent dialogue about something as complex as this. I pointed out some inaccuracies in the data and gave you some context and possibly alternative matrices for comparison. If you’re just posting inflammatory links, then you’re just trolling.

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Why is that absurd? If someone is deliberately propagating half truths I have two choices, take his/her word for it or ask people on the ground for the actual truth. I chose latter. If someone had written that all cops are KKK would you not have told me that its simply not true.

And sorry, trolling people who know this stuff better than me is definitely not my thing.

Considering that I haven't spent a single second on American soil, it should very well point out that my sources are second hand and biased.

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2) Sorry, I didn’t watch the video. Stewart, Colbert and Oliver are great comedians, but these shows usually don’t present a balanced view on issues. It’s not gospel just because John Oliver says so. If something they bring up strikes a chord with you, then I suggest you research the matter for yourself.
Please read my previous response carefully. I said…

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I get very filtered news about US i.e. international relations etc from the local channels and mostly talk shows from American channels, i.e. your Amanpours and Zakarias etc, which are mind numbing, especially Zakaria. Because of a near 12 hour time difference, live news is not particularly feasible. Good morning America is not something you would want to see at dinner time.

So yes, while I do not take Colbert or Oliver or Maher's words to be gospels I do like their shows and agree with them on several matters including the video posted above. If you haven't watched the video then don't just disagree for the sake of it.

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I have never been to “Doraville, Georgia, population of 8500” so I don’t presume to know what their law enforcement needs are, but it sounds like the type of “podunk” place that might not need its own tracked APC. But armored vehicles (not necessarily tracked) are a part of the police toolkit used in hostage and barricaded suspect type of situations. The US from time to time has incidents where heavily armed bad guys get into shootouts with police. And the police need these vehicles for cover, to evacuate casualties, etc. However, in my humble opinion every department does not need to get such a vehicle when they could get by with mutual-aid. A mutual-aid agreement is a pact between various neighboring municipalities to share resources (such as armored vehicles and extra officers) during emergencies. So in theory Doraville and a few of its neighbors could sign such an agreement with the county. But that is something each community has to decide for itself. If the good people of Doraville decide to forgo the APC, then they have to be ok with the consequences of that (whatever that might be). Please look up North Hollywood I think this should be clear enough.

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I could be wrong but isn't dealing with the heavily armed bad guys is exactly the job of a well armed (not heavily) police force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiscon...emple_shooting

Not exactly heavily armed but still....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis..._Center_attack

I don't know about Americans but civilians in general are not particularly fond of APCs parking next to their family cars at signals. And I have seen the footage of North Hollywood shootout plenty of times. Should that be the template for entire police forces across the country. That APC had it been in Detroit or Baltimore would have made much more sense than Doraville.

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If the NYPD has the same budget as the military of Ukraine, maybe it’s time we beef up the NYPD budget. Because we’ve all seen how well the Ukrainians are doing. Again, examine underlying causes when you see random stats. NYC population is 8 million, Greece population is 10 million. There are ~50,000 officers in New York and 109,000 military personal in Greece. Compare population densities. Better yet compare the economies. The biggest cost for police/fire agencies in the US is personnel. So is it unthinkable each NYPD officer (with the cost of living in NYC) could be making twice as much as a Greek service person? Keep in mind this is an oversimplification. You’re thinking, “but the Greeks have military equipment.” Well, the NYPD has a ton of facilities, vehicles, helicopters, IT infrastructure, etc. But why are you even comparing the NYPD to the Greek military. It’s meaningless. Apples to cars.

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If you cannot see the fallacy of your argument that the higher amount of financial resources being spent on a police force which by definition is for policing than a much larger military then perhaps you are right that it is apples and cars.

If you think that a Bell 412 and a F-16, a patrol boat and an armed frigate and a Bearcat and a Leo-2 are perfectly compatible examples of funding requirements then my apologies to you.

Indian Border Security Force while technically still a police force operates more than 100 105mm howitzers, 120mm mortars and MANPADS. If rumours are to be believed then 105mm will be replaced by 155mm units and a small number (few hundred) of Spike AT missiles will be acquired as well. Difference between them and NYPD is that NYPD don't engage Pakistan army in artillery duels on a day to day basis.

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3) That’s good news. I hope it continues to decrease.

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Me too. But isn't this contrary to the whole Mexican gangs thing. Not that there are no Mexican gangs or the crimes they commit but that crime rate is inversely proportional to the illegal immigration. At least this what I gathered.

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4) Based on the limited open source information I have, it looked like an accident. It is unfortunate the man lost his life, but accidents happen. There are even occasional blue-on-blue shootings, with some resulting in fatalities. There was recently a police officer that was shot and killed by his colleague during the execution of a search warrant in Northern California. The legal system will sort out Mr. Bates in due time.

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Kind sir, you are missing the forest for the trees. A 74 year old man with no prior LE experience should not be a part of police force least of all to be armed and on a stake out.

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Originally Posted by AdamG

Are you truly asking, or perhaps tempted to bully pulpit?

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I simply believe that best way to learn the truth is straight from the horse's mouth. If I have a opinion about something, should I not at least bother to check the validity of my opinion?

If I knew any African Americans I would have asked them some hard questions too. You are free to ask me the same.

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You're aware that there are several groups in America (some quite well-funded) who make it a point to travel to incident sites and agitate mobs into acts of violence?

That leads right into one of the phenomenons of the MSM - when the facts contradict their initial leaps-of-logic and rush to play the blame game on their usual targets, then the topic gets flushed down the Memory Hole so fast that it would make George Orwell's head spin if he were still alive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole

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I am very familiar with these kind of groups and MSM phenomenon associated with it. Here, in this part of the world, ironically these kind of groups are mostly funded by US.:wry:

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You will NEVER see anywhere near the column inches/airtime minutes when the poor urban youth turns out to be completely, totally guilty of perpetrating a criminally stupid act that precipitated his own death - that would contradict the narrative.

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That's because the news of just another black teen committing crime is not exactly going to make you (MSM) rich.

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The American media is populated by a significant majority of individuals who hold to what can best be described as "Progressive" political world-views, yet lack the maturity and morale compasses to divorce personal prejudices from their work products (and since they need to attract maximum attention to ensure maximum ad revenues, sensationalist nonsense sells).

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I disagree. For a country as young as US (not in literal sense) is abnormally conservative and riddled with preconceived and severely outdated notions of social and religious norms.

For all the absolutely superb things Americans managed to accomplish in the last century, getting rid of the old world concepts is not one of them. Hence, I am really fascinated by America and its people. Just one eg. Dr. Ben Carson. I wish I had even a fraction of his accomplishments under my belt but I don't. OTOH, I also don't believe that earth is 5000 years old.

You see what I am getting at.

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You need to appreciate these Americanisms to distill the facts out of what counts as Open Source here.

That said, American Law Enforcement bears their own crosses for the current state of affairs - starting with small things like calling Citizens "civilians" (and thus implying a state of war between Law Enforcement and everyone else).

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Just one suggestion, would definitely appreciate you feedback on it. What if you are to charge State with LE not the city or county, i.e, California PD instead of LAPD. I have a list of pros, you can provide me with cons.

1) States can have active and a likely positive role in LE. A governor should be more susceptible to public pressure than a sheriff.

2) Recruitment will be a state matter i.e., because of comparatively less corruption in US, nepotism and illogical recruitment will be handled appropriately. I believe LE officers should not be elected but recruited through a standardized series of tests.

3) Transfer system that partially works in other countries like India. If LE is state matter, you can transfer or relocate any member of the police to different city if any kind of irregularity takes place. Increases accountability or so I have heard.

4) State funding will entail that funds are appropriately distributed. This way Baltimore gets an APC and Doraville gets bicycles.:p

5) Training will be standardized with varying levels as per necessity.


I know I am being too clever by half as Brig. Ray used to say but what the hell, time to live dangerously.:D

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Originally Posted by blueblood

Why is that absurd? If someone is deliberately propagating half truths I have two choices, take his/her word for it or ask people on the ground for the actual truth. I chose latter. If someone had written that all cops are KKK would you not have told me that its simply not true. And sorry, trolling people who know this stuff better than me is definitely not my thing.

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You actually have a third option, which is to look it up yourself. You could spend a fraction of the time researching these topics, and find the same information and not have to rely on others who have their own biases and agendas (like myself or Jon Stewart). There’s nothing wrong with asking, but check the accuracy of the data first. Discussions have to be based on facts. Otherwise why should anyone waste their time? It's been my experience, nobody engaged the crazy man yelling gibberish in front of the town square.

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So yes, while I do not take Colbert or Oliver or Maher's words to be gospels I do like their shows and agree with them on several matters including the video posted above. If you haven't watched the video then don't just disagree for the sake of it.

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I am a huge Jon Stewart fan, less so of Oliver, but I take his shtick with a grain of salt. While I haven’t seen the Ferguson video, I have a good in which direction it is headed.

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I could be wrong but isn't dealing with the heavily armed bad guys is exactly the job of a well armed (not heavily) police force.

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I don’t understand why we are still debating APCs in Doraville. The two incidents you cited are active shooter incidents that were over in a flash. Not every incident plays out the same way. Police agencies have to “hope for the best and plan for the worst.” Just because the Spartans held the pass with 300 people (I know actual numbers are many times that), that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have used more men or that future operations have to be restricted to 300. Or because Col John Ripley blew up the Dong Ha bridge by himself, it doesn’t mean we no longer need sappers or bridge blowing operations need to be restricted to one person. “Past results are not indicative of future performance.”
The police have a toolkit to respond to different types of law enforcement incident. Their tools include rifles, sniper rifles, cameras, armored vehicles, command post vehicles, helicopters, boats, bomb disposal vehicles, etc. They have to use the appropriate tool for the situation at hand.

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I don't know about Americans but civilians in general are not particularly fond of APCs parking next to their family cars at signals. And I have seen the footage of North Hollywood shootout plenty of times. Should that be the template for entire police forces across the country. That APC had it been in Detroit or Baltimore would have made much more sense than Doraville.

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Enough with the hyperbole. The police are not taking APCs out for joyrides. If these vehicles are on the streets then they are being transported somewhere or they are responding to an incident…and Joe Citizen should feel safe the good guys are on their way to do their duty. Police forces across the US have to be ready to handle heavily armed suspects including hostage takers. 50 years ago the M16 was used only by the military. At a certain point, when criminals started to outgun police, the military and local governments worked out a deal where they received surplus M16 from the DOD free of charge. Now the M16 or AR variant is standard issue to almost all police agencies. As the threat evolves so does the police posture.
You said that you thought it might be appropriate for Baltimore or Detroit to have APCs. Not everyone in the US would agree with you. Some would even argue that the police do not need rifles, or traffic cameras, or license plate readers, etc. Each community has to decide for itself.

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If you cannot see the fallacy of your argument that the higher amount of financial resources being spent on a police force which by definition is for policing than a much larger military then perhaps you are right that it is apples and cars.
If you think that a Bell 412 and a F-16, a patrol boat and an armed frigate and a Bearcat and a Leo-2 are perfectly compatible examples of funding requirements then my apologies to you.
Indian Border Security Force while technically still a police force operates more than 100 105mm howitzers, 120mm mortars and MANPADS. If rumours are to be believed then 105mm will be replaced by 155mm units and a small number (few hundred) of Spike AT missiles will be acquired as well. Difference between them and NYPD is that NYPD don't engage Pakistan army in artillery duels on a day to day basis.

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Personnel costs... personnel costs... personnel costs

What fallacy? Where is the rule that a US police department (in this case, the largest in the nation) has to have a smaller budget than country X? Why are we comparing police and military, especially when not accounting for things like pay scale which is related to standard of living? Why those countries and not Germany, North Korea, or South Sudan. What does one have to do with the other? One could also argue that policing a first world city is more expensive than guarding a third world nation.

The NYPD budget is not high because they are buying F-16s… like I said earlier it’s mostly personnel costs. The NYPD cops get paid more because the standard of living in the US is better than Greece, Ukraine or India. Starting salary for NYPD is $44k. Starting salary for San Francisco Police is $80k. What’s the starting salary for soldier in any of the other countries? It’s around $120 a year for a Greek conscript. Sergeants make $144 a year. For that price, I can rent a company of Greek soldiers and make them pass in review in front of my place every morning. We can’t pay the NYPD in rupees. The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force. The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill. So what they have howitzers? Like I said the NYPD has a ton of patrol cars, boats, helicopters, and other equipment. But again, most of the cost is personnel…which is determined by crime rate, size, population, population density, officer-to-citizen ratios, etc, and to a degree politics. The agency size is determined by the police chief, police commission, mayor, city council and sometimes citizens through ballot measures for new taxes. Democratic process.
If the police budget for a German city is higher than the Eritrean military, doesn’t it mean the Germans are corrupt or racist or over-policed? Or what if you compare Luxembourg to Sao Paulo, Brazil? NYC spends $2.3billion on waste disposal…that’s 2/3 of the Greek military spending. The budget for the NYFD with ~15k employees is $1.7billion. The budget for the NYPD which has ~50k employees is $4.8billion.

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Kind sir, you are missing the forest for the trees. A 74 year old man with no prior LE experience should not be a part of police force least of all to be armed and on a stake out.

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I don't want to defend Bates, but you are making some very inaccurate statements, not sure if deliberately. According to the news, he is claiming to have completed the training but some of that training has been called into question. He was also allegedly a police officer at another department at one point in his life. The courts will hear all the evidence and make a decision. Additionally, if there was any corruption on the part of the sheriff or any other public official, I suspect that will be dealt with in due time. Certainly, there will be civil consequences. Just fyi, as far as i know most agencies have a reserve officer/deputy program; there is no age limit, but there is strict requirements on training (which should be documented). Reserves can be assigned from routine paperwork to patrol based on the level of training they receive. Here's a story with a good ending...http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/07/justic...deputy-arrest/

Overall, you seems to be seeing cause-and-effect where it does not exist and drawing conclusions based on unrelated comparisons.
I’m sorry I’m not even going to fully address your most recent comment. Google is your friend…
Look up “California Highway Patrol” or [State Name]” Police/Troopers
Sheriffs are elected.
LE officers are not elected. They apply for the job and go through rigorous testing and screening. Police chiefs are usually appointed by mayor/city council.
Look up “California Commission on Peace Office Standards and Training (CA POST)”. Most states have similar agencies.

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Originally Posted by blueblood

I simply believe that best way to learn the truth is straight from the horse's mouth. If I have a opinion about something, should I not at least bother to check the validity of my opinion?

If I knew any African Americans I would have asked them some hard questions too. You are free to ask me the same.

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Considering the sheer numbers of Indian police and their human rights issues, you're living in a glass house.

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Each state/ union territory has its own separate police force. In addition, there are central police organisations set up by the union government for specialised work. The total strength of the state/union territory police forces on 1.1.2003 in the country was 1, 468,776. In addition, the strength of the five central para-military organisations alone was 601,328.4k. The combined strength of state and central police is about 2.2 millions

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http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org...y_in_india.pdf

*snip*

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Originally Posted by blueblood

I know I am being too clever by half

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I also noticed after politely pointing to where you'd get the best primary source information, you completely ignored my suggestion. Afraid of the Lion's Den? (That's a rhetorical question, we already know the answer).

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Originally Posted by AdamG

BB,

You might get a better response to this over at the Police One Forums, considering that they're the ones actually on the street.
http://www.policeone.com/police-forums/

If you do register and get a response, by all means post the thread URL here.

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Originally Posted by AdamG

Considering the sheer numbers of Indian police and their human rights issues, you're living in a glass house.

http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org...y_in_india.pdf

*snip*

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Why would I deny that? Did I somehow presented Indian police to be the perfect example? Do you wish to know the ground reality of Indian police forces?

Many members here have served and I didn't and that alone puts me far down the list. So no rather being courteous to the people who did something I won't be able to do. I think being respected is not something you are good at.

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I also noticed after politely pointing to where you'd get the best primary source information, you completely ignored my suggestion. Afraid of the Lion's Den? (That's a rhetorical question, we already know the answer).

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Lion's den? I will register, ask them something and they will do what exactly? Confess that shooting unarmed black men in the back is abhorring.

Afraid of what, getting shot via internet?

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Originally Posted by JarodParker

You actually have a third option, which is to look it up yourself. You could spend a fraction of the time researching these topics, and find the same information and not have to rely on others who have their own biases and agendas (like myself or Jon Stewart). There’s nothing wrong with asking, but check the accuracy of the data first. Discussions have to be based on facts. Otherwise why should anyone waste their time? It's been my experience, nobody engaged the crazy man yelling gibberish in front of the town square.

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You are right.

1) Police shot someone - Right

2) Someone died - Right

3) Were the numbers correct - Wrong

All I learned that you are highly defensive and have consistently refrained from calling a spade a spade that yes police are repeatedly messing up. Sometimes deliberately and sometimes accidentally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encoun...ings_by_police

They were right most of the time but they were also wrong on many occasions. Many of them were staged i.e. shooting a suspect after informally arresting him and some were fake i.e. politically motivated.

If you think I am some socialist American basher then you are wrong. I have family in the states. They love the police and I have family in India who are the police that includes my maternal grandfather(deceased), my aunt and uncle.

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I am a huge Jon Stewart fan, less so of Oliver, but I take his shtick with a grain of salt. While I haven’t seen the Ferguson video, I have a good in which direction it is headed.

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Jon Oliver being on the HBO gives him a lot of immunity that Stewart doesn't enjoy. You don't get to see huge corporates being pummeled to ground that often anywhere else and that I think is his biggest USP.

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I don’t understand why we are still debating APCs in Doraville. The two incidents you cited are active shooter incidents that were over in a flash. Not every incident plays out the same way. Police agencies have to “hope for the best and plan for the worst.” Just because the Spartans held the pass with 300 people (I know actual numbers are many times that), that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have used more men or that future operations have to be restricted to 300. Or because Col John Ripley blew up the Dong Ha bridge by himself, it doesn’t mean we no longer need sappers or bridge blowing operations need to be restricted to one person. “Past results are not indicative of future performance.”
The police have a toolkit to respond to different types of law enforcement incident. Their tools include rifles, sniper rifles, cameras, armored vehicles, command post vehicles, helicopters, boats, bomb disposal vehicles, etc. They have to use the appropriate tool for the situation at hand.


Enough with the hyperbole. The police are not taking APCs out for joyrides. If these vehicles are on the streets then they are being transported somewhere or they are responding to an incident…and Joe Citizen should feel safe the good guys are on their way to do their duty. Police forces across the US have to be ready to handle heavily armed suspects including hostage takers. 50 years ago the M16 was used only by the military. At a certain point, when criminals started to outgun police, the military and local governments worked out a deal where they received surplus M16 from the DOD free of charge. Now the M16 or AR variant is standard issue to almost all police agencies. As the threat evolves so does the police posture.
You said that you thought it might be appropriate for Baltimore or Detroit to have APCs. Not everyone in the US would agree with you. Some would even argue that the police do not need rifles, or traffic cameras, or license plate readers, etc. Each community has to decide for itself.

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Agreed with the constantly evolving threat but this has to stop somewhere. The APC and Doraville is an example of where things are headed. Things should not be the way.

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The NYPD budget is not high because they are buying F-16s… like I said earlier it’s mostly personnel costs. The NYPD cops get paid more because the standard of living in the US is better than Greece, Ukraine or India.

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Never realized that Greece is a third world country.

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Starting salary for NYPD is $44k. Starting salary for San Francisco Police is $80k. What’s the starting salary for soldier in any of the other countries? It’s around $120 a year for a Greek conscript. Sergeants make $144 a year. For that price, I can rent a company of Greek soldiers and make them pass in review in front of my place every morning. We can’t pay the NYPD in rupees.

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Would you like to share a source for that.

You should try rupees in India ofcourse. Today I paid Rs 600 for 10 kg and Rs 130 for 1 kg for two different kinds of basmati rice. The most expensive thing I bought today was a pack of cigarettes. And my monthly cell phone bill is Rs 210.:p

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The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force.
The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill.

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You are right. India is dirt poor and we all live in mud huts. So much for the "research it yourself" before typing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adarsh...g_Society_scam

Only example with a wiki page I could find. Organizations like BSF have their own housing, ration & stores and mess system. If they go by army's template then the the ranks do not pay for housing, electricity and get highly subsidized rations and mess and liqour.

So yes, can't afford the dry cleaning tab.

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If the police budget for a German city is higher than the Eritrean military, doesn’t it mean the Germans are corrupt or racist or over-policed? Or what if you compare Luxembourg to Sao Paulo, Brazil? NYC spends $2.3billion on waste disposal…that’s 2/3 of the Greek military spending. The budget for the NYFD with ~15k employees is $1.7billion. The budget for the NYPD which has ~50k employees is $4.8billion.

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You realize that Germany is not as good an example as you think it is.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-machine-guns/

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I don't want to defend Bates, but you are making some very inaccurate statements, not sure if deliberately. According to the news, he is claiming to have completed the training but some of that training has been called into question. He was also allegedly a police officer at another department at one point in his life. The courts will hear all the evidence and make a decision. Additionally, if there was any corruption on the part of the sheriff or any other public official, I suspect that will be dealt with in due time. Certainly, there will be civil consequences. Just fyi, as far as i know most agencies have a reserve officer/deputy program; there is no age limit, but there is strict requirements on training (which should be documented). Reserves can be assigned from routine paperwork to patrol based on the level of training they receive. Here's a story with a good ending...http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/07/justic...deputy-arrest/


Look up “California Highway Patrol” or [State Name]” Police/Troopers
Sheriffs are elected.
LE officers are not elected. They apply for the job and go through rigorous testing and screening. Police chiefs are usually appointed by mayor/city council.
Look up “California Commission on Peace Office Standards and Training (CA POST)”. Most states have similar agencies.

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Why would anyone defend Bates but still some people do and no I am doing anything deliberately except seeing you skirting around the age issue.

But you were right about the prior experience.

Bates became a reserve deputy in 2008 and served as a police officer for one year from 1964 to 1965.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/04/robert...cop-insurance/

I am harping 73 years old and you keep hearing 30. Age my friend age.

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You conveniently cherry picked an example of an unrelated agency when you and I are talking about the Sheriff system in US.

Distinctive in law enforcement in the United States, sheriffs are usually elected.

Of the 50 U.S. states, 48 have sheriffs. The two that do not are Alaska (which has no counties), and Connecticut (which has no county governments and has state marshals instead of sheriffs)

Sheriffs are elected to four-year terms in 42 states, two-year terms in two states (New Hampshire and Arkansas), a three-year term in one state (New Jersey) and a six-year term in one state (Massachusetts).[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherif..._United_States

A person who has never stepped foot in the US, doesn't have any law enforcement experience and can't accept new information... The US is waiting for your arrival, so you can fix our broke system of law enforcement. Until then, live long and prosper.

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Originally Posted by JarodParker

A person who has never stepped foot in the US, doesn't have any law enforcement experience and can't accept new information... The US is waiting for your arrival, so you can fix our broke system of law enforcement. Until then, live long and prosper. Or to paraphrase Limp Bizkit, "Keep trollin', trollin', trollin'... "

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While some members replied genuinely and I thanked them for it, you carried on with your rhetoric and skirting. Lets see the pearls of wisdom you dropped.

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One could also argue that policing a first world city is more expensive than guarding a third world nation.

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The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force. The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill.

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Sheriffs are elected. LE officers are not elected.

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So my sincerest thanks to you and goodbye.

I've been off SWC for two days and now notice that the tone and words in some recent posts are - simply - not how we conduct ourselves. SWC is known for respecting each other's viewpoints, not what is here.

Stay calm and carry on.

I agree with Bob's World that we do in fact have a great deal of gun violence compared to others, but it is a necessary problem. I came on with the Feds in 1992, right about the time there was a shift in tactical training across the country. Speed, surprise and violence of action was thing. At least for my agency this was a response to the drug problems and the associated violence. Much of law enforcement was outgunned for a time. With the War on Drugs came a ton of money to local and state law enforcement and who doesn't want cool gear.

Departments having APCs and MRAPS and such isn't a big deal to me if it is being used for high risk types of operations conducted by SWAT teams. In a lot of places SWAT is being used for most search warrants due to liability. There are local drug task forces out where I work who are not allowed to serve basic dope warrants. Nope, they gotta bring out LAVs and everyone has a long gun. The issue with police weapons isn't a big deal to me either because I believe police having ARs is just the evolution of the firearm.

I also think police in the U.S. are discouraged from going hands on with people - that to is a liability. Broken bones, choke holds, torn this and torn that.

Another thing and this is obviously my opinion. There are a lot of mouthy a-holes out there who are just plain stuck on stupid.

But, the biggest factor in the end is training - IMO.

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Originally Posted by gute

Another thing and this is obviously my opinion. There are a lot of mouthy a-holes out there who are just plain stuck on stupid.

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This seems to go both ways.

Yep, goes both ways.

Note the author is a WaPO journalist, working in London and not a British police officer saying do this:

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...experts say the way British bobbies are trained, commanded and vigorously scrutinized may offer US police forces a useful blueprint for bringing down the rate of deadly violence and defusing some of the burning tension felt in cities from coast to coast.

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The stats below give some context:http://www.independent.co.uk/incomin...rit-police.jpg
Link:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10316119.html

Blueblood,

We in the U.S. certainly have problems with our police, some due to bad policing, others due to social ills related to a prevailing drug culture, gangs, irresponsible media (right and left), and the confluence of numerous other issues. We can't deny we don't have policing issues due to statistics, the problem is perception. Some that perception is promoting by self serving scum like Al Sharpton who will never let facts get in the way of his agenda. While acknowleding that aspect, we also need to acknowledge the expectations for police behaviour are changing, and the police will have to adapt. Change will be difficult, but it will happen. New rules will restrict certain police behavior, then crime will increase, so rules will be adjusted resulting in a new normal. This is actually a sign of a healthy democracy where complex issues are hotly debated. The fact that someone lowered themselves far below their normal civil discourse to call you a troll just demonstrates how sensitive this topic is in the U.S.

One of the better articles I've read on police shootings:http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a5085...s-deadly-force

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Originally Posted by davidbfpo

One of the better articles I've read on police shootings:http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a5085...s-deadly-force

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That is a good one, thanks for passing it along. The following particularly caught my eye:

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This spring, testifying at a U.S. Civil Rights Commission hearing on deadly force, one topic he discussed was "tactical positioning," a strategy in which officers keep a safe distance, unless there is imminent danger.

"Often times, officers find themselves in too close, too quickly, and they don't have any option other than to shoot their way out of it," Klinger says. "That's where I really think we fall down in American law enforcement."

He uses last year's police shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, as an example. Though he agrees that Officer Darren Wilson was justified in shooting Brown, he also says that shooting might have been avoided if Wilson had waited and called for backup.

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I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush, as I know a couple of career officers who are quite adept at deescalation. And I know that anecdotes aren’t data, but in my experience it seems much more common for officers’ efforts to “control” a situation actually result in an escalation of the situation. I’m not saying that that is what typically happens, but I’ve seen it often enough as well as had it relayed to me second-hand to be confident that it’s far from uncommon.

A short "broad brush" review of American policing by a criminologist, Professor Ronald Witzer (GWU) so not just about shootings; this is the most current thread on US LE.

It is available free via the latest issue of the 'The Criminlogist':http://www.asc41.com/criminologist.html

Or on the attachment (minus references).

The Washington Post had an opinion which gathered a surprising amount of positive responses.

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Of course, officers’ safety is vital, and they’re entitled to defend themselves and the communities they serve. But they’re failing to see the connection between their aggressive postures and the hostility they’ve encountered in Ferguson, Mo., Baltimore and other communities. When you level assault rifles at protesters, you create animosity. When you kill an unarmed man on his own property while his hands are raised — as Fairfax County police did in 2013 — you sow distrust. And when you threaten to Taser a woman during a routine traffic stop (as happened to 28-year-old Sandra Bland, who died in a Texas jail this month), you cultivate a fear of police. This makes policing more dangerous for everyone.

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It is important to keep the statistical context in mind. The Guardian initiated a fine project, aptly named "The Counted", as shockingly there is no official statistic keeping track of how those persons.

A sometimes hard to watch video montage of recent and not so recent incidents from the NYT:

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Those videos, all involving white officers and black civilians, have become ingrained in the nation’s consciousness — to many people, as evidence of bad police conduct. And while they represent just a tiny fraction of police behavior — those that show respectful, peaceful interactions do not make the 24-hour cable news — they have begun to alter public views of police use of force and race relations, experts and police officials say.

Videos have provided “corroboration of what African-Americans have been saying for years,” said Paul Butler, a professor at Georgetown University Law School and a former prosecutor, who called them “the C-Span of the streets.”

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Link:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/31/us...f-police.html?

The article is also worth reading about body-worn and vehicle video systems are not a magic solution.

A long article in The Guardian; with a sub-title:

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Police in Kern County, California, have killed more people per capita than in any other American county in 2015. The Guardian examines how, with little oversight, officers here became the country’s most lethal

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In 2015:

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In all, 13 people have been killed so far this year by law enforcement officers in Kern County, which has a population of just under 875,000. During the same period, nine people were killed by the NYPD across the five counties of New York City, where almost 10 times as many people live and about 23 times as many sworn law enforcement officers patrol.

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Link:http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...olice-killings

There is an interesting table for:

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America's deadliest counties for police killings this year Among all US counties with five or more officer-involved killings logged by the Guardian in 2015, Kern County saw the most deaths per capita.*
The deadliest counties — those with 10 or more deaths – are show below

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