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I've been thinking about this for a while. The time to worry about things like ethnic cleansing and increased Iranian influence is before you start the war. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.Quote:
Originally Posted by slate.com
I like Ike. We even use the same hair stylist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rank amateur
I thought you were making reference to the campaign button, " I Like Ike".
You state in your essay, "The astute strategist senses such obsolescence before it is proven, and uses a burst of creativity to establish new patterns..."
This seems to characterize the friction between the COIN advocates and traditionalists of today's Military
I was. (this is gibberish because I was told my message was too short)Quote:
Originally Posted by goesh
Ike: the wrong man for the Long War?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkAqtILdYaI
Well, I always like the way Ike handled all the displaced persons and their thuggery after the firing had ceased - a whiff of grapeshot can still go a long ways sometimes:p
Eisenhower is also the man who brought us the idea of massive retaliation and got us started in Southeast Asia (Laos). I'm not a big fan....
Could you be more specific? I'd like to know more about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by goesh
Steve - You could also mention Operation Ajax in Iran that brought us so many benefits. Also American empowerment of Joseph Mobutu, but who cares about Africa.
Ike's Spies: Eisenhower and the Espionage Establishment, by Stephen Ambrose, is a good read along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by tequila
Tequila, I'm trying to track down the source but just can't spend that much time on it - synopsis of recollection from about a month ago or so - essentially once the formal shooting ended, there were literally many, many thousands of displaced persons with no jobs, no resources, no real law and order and they were roaming all over the place trying to survive. It was an admixture of former soldiers, displaced men, deserters - primarily younger men. A jeep with an Officer and a couple of enlisted was accosted by a small group of thugs/survivalists and were barely driven back with pointed guns. Ike then sent out, and as I best recall, 30,000 troops to fan out and stop the thuggery and bring some law and order on top of the occupation mechanism already in place. There wasn't much counseling and nurturing done in the course of reducing thuggery/foraging - a few were shot, some rounded up and temporarily detained and most got the message quicly that rampant foraging would not be tolerated. It didn't drag on for years, hence the reference to Napolean. It reminds me of a prison riot in Korea I read once read where troops without combat experience couldn't handle a big, ongoing riot in a Korean POW camp - some men were pulled from the line and brought in and the rioting stopped quickly.
ire in the Iraniha. There were a few who were torqued by it but the vast majority were not nearly as concerned as many here in the US seem to wish to believe...Quote:
Originally Posted by tequila
There are a bunch more you could cite aside from Mobutu. :D
Whatever the feelings of Iranians at the time, Mossadeq has become a symbol among Iranians of American and British perfidy. I know several Iranians in the U.S. who despise the regime, including a guy who helped organize the anti-Ahmadenijad demonstrations at the UN yesterday, but still sees Mossadeq as a visionary who stood up to Western colonialism. That all the different factions in 1979 from the Communists to the Khomeinists paid tribute to him testifies to the power of his image as a martyr to imperialism if not necessarily the reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken White
Americans can barely stomach the French for defying our will over Iraq. Imagine how we would feel if they had launched a coup to install Thomas Jefferson in 1796 - John Adams might be known for something other than a McCullough biography.
But Ken, Uncle Mo was just so Mobutu, ya know? I wish I had a copy of Zairios TV when it would come on and Mo would descend from the clouds as Le Guide...:wry:Quote:
There are a bunch more you could cite aside from Mobutu.
Tom
Iranian (in the US or in Iran) sentiment for Mossadegh -- and that's exactly what it is, sentiment -- if fueled by a heavy dose of Ayatollah produced propaganda over the last 50 years. The internet abounds with it. That's fascinating because that crowd was right in the middle of Ajax on all sides. Khomeini's role, in particular, bears considerable scrutiny...Quote:
Originally Posted by tequila
Lot of myths about that, who did what to who and the effect on the Iranian psyche. Mossadegh doesn't affect most nearly as much as Darius seems to. I spent a couple of years there, still got friends and acquaintances there and here and while the e-mail is sporadic from there, it is remarkably frank.
I don't have any problem with the French for "defying our will" (interesting phrase) over Iraq; the French are the French and they have theuir own drummers, always have. Nothing wrong with that. Nor do I know anyone who fits your 'barely stomach' description. Other than the twits and ignoramuses in the media who babbled about it, that is...
IF is a big word; Harry Turtledove-esque or Newt Gingrich like alternative history is a total waste of time and effort. The reality is we -- and most other nations -- have supported a number of unsavory characters from time to time. The world has gotten better about that sort of thing but it will not go away entirely. Get used to it.
Ne Win came close to him on that score. The Agency's support of Fidel and that Guevara phony don't even let them come close but ya gotta give Senor C. credit for longevity... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom Odom
I'm a big fan too Steve. In fact, I've got your monograph on my bookshelf. My nine year old boy insisted that we celebrate GEN Eisenhower's 117th birthday today, so my wife baked some cupcakes and we sang "Happy Birthday Ike" after dinner this evening. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMetz