Sorry for the delayed response, John
Working backwards here -- that and not being a typist makes me late. Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree we're pretty close. I think NorthCom should have a SOC but I also think it oughta be low key and even possibly called something else. It should definitely be involved if the operational units get committed.
Yeah, they're in the process of moving most, not all, of the CA away from SOCOM, PsyOps as I understand it is gonna be about a 50:50 split. Agree that Congress can change the Posse Comitatus but my objection to the use of Federal troops in the direct Action mode barring a really unusual situation is purely based on the PR and the Politics -- my suspicion is the the Chiefs of Staff / CNO / CMC will feel the same way (CinCSoc probably won't care).
Re the comment on the public; Sir, you are a Master of Understatement!!! Well said.
My JTF 6 comment was based on a conversation with a friend who's pretty reliable and who was in discussions with the JTF J3 on another matter a few months ago. Perception was there had been jurisdiction, operational and disciplinary problems and some disenchantment had occurred. Same for the Tejas Guard comment. Re the Marine and the shooting, I'm told there were other problems and I wasn't referring totally to the shooting but also to the logistic and personnel problems that occurred
Having dealt with the Guard and Reserve on a full time basis in my last job before retirement, I'm far more aware of Title 10 and 32 problems and limitations (and Guard and Reserve capabilities <- that is not derogatory) than I want to be; however, in this case, which Title rules and the Posse Comitatus Act are not the problem in use of the Guard in Title 32 status under NorthCom direction -- I think the politics will be.
Still, we're in pretty much agreement; just quibbling over details. Thanks again.
Ken
slapout9, s'okay, we can disagree.
I would, however suggest that civilian LE whose job the Gangs are can do everything as well as the guys in the SO community can if they're properly and sensibly selected and trained. It ain't that hard.
Been my observation that saying you can't do the job and someone else is needed to do it reflects badly and that most people are protective of their turf and will bend over backwards to avoid saying that and getting 'help' they don't want, particularly if that 'help' comes from the Feds.
Aside from the fact of really adverse PR and the political (not legal) implications, I have no prob with Military SOF doing SOF stuff (even in CONUS); LE isn't Military SOF stuff.
Gangs are an LE job. Given interstate proliferation, some Federal involvement is going to occur, if you don't like the FBI doing it, then pick an Agency. I used the HRT in the comment simply because it existed (and will probably continue to do so, distraction or not). I hear the Park Police have a good crew (no snark and no fooling)
On the FBI, both my Sons would disagree with you on the caliber of the Investigative ability of the FBI. Both of 'em have bad stories. One of 'em has a hilarious tale about a bank that got hit by a serial bank robber everyone had been looking for for months when not one but two SAs were in a bank he hit. Bad Guy got away, embarassing in several ways the SAs in the process. Few weeks later he got caught by a local cop. Then, of course, there was Ol' Eric Rudoplh...;)
No Federal Troops in 'Bama, the AL ArNG just got Federalized IIRC. I had to deal with Faubus and rather irate and unfriendly Arkansans in AR and Barnett in MS (actually not, we set between the runways at Columbus AFB for ten days doing little and went back to Bragg). George was a trip though...
I'm up in the L.A. corner, Redneck Riviera. I fit right in. :)
Comments to ... one and all?
Slapout, you are right about my buddy Max's paper. It is available from SSI on the web. He has expanded it into a book which is currently under consdieration for publication. From what I hear, it is likely to be a go.
Ken, yeah, we are really close. Amazing what a good discussion will bring our!:wry:
Ironhorse, PACOM does have some US territory - Hawaii comes to mind as does Guam - where PC applies. SOUTHCOM is a bit different. Until the second last revision of the UCP, it had no territory on which PC applied. Then it picked up Caribbean waters. Then NORTHCOM was created and it lost most of those. However, JIATF-South is located in Key West and is subordinate to SOUTHCOM. But its CO is a USCG Rear Admiral and it has Customs and other LE folk in addition to USCG so it would be hard for it to violate PC either as a reg or law.:cool:
And the UCP is supposed to be clear
Ironhorse, it seems that the 2 commands can't get it right:eek:, how are we mere mortals supposed to sort it out?
regarding organizational taxonomies
P.S. speaking to an FDNY official not long after 9/11. For those that don't know it, FDNY and NYPD get on in many ways like Christians and lions. Rough paraphrase of his observations:
We'd finally agreed that the FD had lead for explosions and fires, and the PD had the lead for acts of terrorism. That seemed like a great plan, and we were ready to live with that. Until we had an act of terrorism that caused an explosion and a fire, when it didn't do much for us and we were back at it.
Heh, Okay, Ironhorse, we can do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ironhorse
Late to this great discussion. A few things to add...
Let us screw it up first, before we lambast it.
And we probably will :)
Then we'll fix it, we're pretty good at that methodology
Good post, BTW
Long haired guys with private militias
< I don't think that the emphasis has been weak on UW/FID on SOF's part but I do believe that a lot of Big Army commanders are uncomfortable with the idea of a bunch of "long haired cowboys" running around the country side with their own private militias (some of them actually believe this). >
One of my instructors was a long haired civil operator who had done just this - maybe he was pulling our legs, but he had a pretty amusing story about the early OEF days and hiring out Pashtun body guards for local dignitaries, when they started essentially tithing him, and being culturally sensitive and aware, he was forced to accept said tithings. The story was a cautionary tale, because apparently he wound up getting into a lot of trouble over this, but fought it in a court martial and was exonerated.