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I think American policymakers are quite sensitive to what New Delhi thinks. Witness the skittering that took place when the President spoke about Kashmir last year, followed by the predictable explosion by the Indians.Quote:
Originally Posted by carl
Tequila:
I fear we may be sensitive to diplomatic protestations but not enough to actually do something about this. I fear India may one day decide we can't or won't do anything and act on their own. That wouldn't make much rational sense but emotions can drive things to places where rationality won't go.
This thread is about why we are working with the Pak Army/ISI. One of the stated reasons is always that we do so in order to insure nukes don't fall into the hands of irrational jihadists. It may be the nukes are already in the hands or the irrational and they are building more, with our money. We can at least cut off the funds, but we won't because the nukes might fall into the hands of the irrational. We are nuts.
There is a very interesting development going on in Pakistan beyond the latest shenanigans over OBL and the embarrassment and anger amongst the public.
Pakistan has made overtures to Russia that would have great import on the geopolitical and geostrategic equations in play in the region.
Russia could become another intense and active player in Pakistan in addition to the US and China.
Zardari has announced that Russians would have access to their ports, apart from other concessions.
A better analysis is at:Quote:
Thursday, May 12, 2011
Pakistan offers Russia access to “southern seas
http://voiceofkarachi.blogspot.com/2...access-to.html
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead...?homepage=true
What is interesting is the intent of Russia working towards the return to its old glory and influence the region, if not the world.
One has to observe how the US will react to this move and what will it be its effect on the US presence in Afghanistan. Will the US abdicate the strategic space to Russia or not?Quote:
In Sochi, the new forum, which Mr. Medvedev described as “a working regional format,” was institutionalised as a permanent arrangement, independent of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and the Collective Security Treaty Organisation, a defence bloc of former Soviet states focussed on Central Asia. …..
“Russia may become a donor of economic, social and military-political security for Afghanistan, Pakistan and Tajikistan,” Chairman of the Russian Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee Konstantin Kosachev said commenting on the Sochi summit.
Pakistan would play a key role in the Russian plan in bringing the Russian influence deep South and into the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean. It will also spur the Russian presence in the Indian Ocean and that would not be in the US’ or Chinese interests.
It is a very smart move on the part of the much maligned Zardari to bring all key players in the world into Pakistan to balance any move to unbalance Pakistan by any power.
Yet, one has to see if the bringing in of all powers to play in Pakistan is beneficial or will it only make the situation more complex and explosive.
In so far as to the adding of a nuclear plant to Pakistan’s array, it is indeed disquieting. One wonders if it is for her chronic power shortage or for its nuclear stockpile. It is said that Pakistan has the fourth largest stockpile in the world. The development will be watched with keen interest, not only by India, but also others.
One can do little about Pakistan’s nuclear quest since any action would be an act of war. India naturally would not like to be labelled an aggressor.
However, there is great apprehension in Pakistan that the US could carry out an Abbotabad type of action against its nuclear assets.
The real real concern in India is another Mumbai like terror act, engineered by Pakistan.
This time, the Govt of India would not be able to pussyfoot since the wrath of the people would be inflamed beyond doubt.
What action would/should India take if it happened again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
The real problem is the Govt of India.
It is timid and prefers to 'ride it out'.
The US also encourages the Govt not to upset Pakistan since it would upset whatever little assistance it is getting from the Pak Army in KP.
The US in return provides information as they have done in the Headley case.
The Cold Start Doctrine, even though there are some gaps, can be activated since it is capable of being effective even in its present form since the Doctrine does not envisage a full scale war to the finish.
It is adequate since it was never the intention of India (Govt of India) to have a war to the finish, notwithstanding the Sunderjee Doctrine. Sunderjee was a great admirer of the US military thinking and theoretically wanted to replicate it in the Indian context.
Wars to the finish is not feasible since the international powers will intervene as they have always done. Then there is question of the capability to sustain financially prolonged wars. India is better off in this regard than Pakistan.
It is also a truism that no power would allow Pakistan to roll over since it would not be in their interest to have India the sole regional power, given the manner it is on the rise. None would like another China around.
Ray, your initial comment wasQuote:
Originally Posted by Ray
...but perhaps it is this very timidity of the GOI that will result in their attempting to "ride it out" again rather than in terms of Cold Start to effectively send troops into Pakistan and thereby risk tactical nuke retaliation from Pakistan and the escalation that would follow?Quote:
"This time, the Govt of India would not be able to pussyfoot since the wrath of the people would be inflamed beyond doubt."
If India were to become the sole regional power would it likely become aggressive and predatory like the US, Russia and China? Somehow I don't think so. How would a "timid" power impose itself on those in its region of influence?
PS: Ray as India is one of the few affected countries seemingly taking an aggressive approach to the rapidly spilling over Somali piracy your input (if you can find the time) would IMHO be welcome in the More Piracy Near Somalia thread.
Thanks to ray for his Indian perspective, so this link may help SWC to understand what we can expect from India:http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analy...ation-is-naive
Admittedly a comment on an Indian SF mission.
I did note this, which I've not seen elsewhere and concerned me:The author writes a weekly column, sometimes on national security issues and is a former senior police officer and intelligence officer (with RAW).Quote:
...was it necessary to place their troops along the Line of Control with India on "high alert"?....Fortunately, our official reaction as articulated by our foreign secretary on 6 May in Paris, of continued engagement with Pakistan, was mature and timely.
There is always a desire and tendency with the Indian Govt 'to ride out crises'Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA
I think it is because of a cultural problem.
I was just reading this today about the reflection of a Rajput King on the wars fought during the Mughal times between the Rajput and the Mughuls:
It makes me uncomfortable since it is not very PC, but then if one thinks about it, it does indicate a sort of fatalism and unwillingness to be aggressive since there is nothing in afterlife except reincarnation the level of increase in the form of existence in the next life, dependent on the karma of the present!! And to be non violent and being Goody Two Shoes elevates you to a better level of existence in your next life.Quote:
The truth is, I know nothing in our scriptures, which could compare with the motivation and power of Islam. We, too, could and do fight holy wars, but there is no mechanism for conversion in our religion. The urge to convert, definitely is one of the driving forces of Islam.
Our greatest call to war is the Bhagwat Gita, and what does the Gita say? Fight the war or perform the duties of your vocation, whatever they may be, but without thinking of the fruits and the consequence of your action. Compare this with what Islam codifies and spells out in most precise and factual manner. If you die fighting for your God, you go direct to Heaven where houris and other vividly described indescribable pleasures await you.
What is the afterlife the Gita offers? For the great mass of unenlightened souls, there is nothing but an endless cycle reincarnations. Unless we deliver certainties of afterlife and be specific of preternatural joys await those who fulfil their duties,I doubt if we will be able to match the Muslim's zeal or commitment. It is a wonder then that Hindus win was as many as they do!!
Of course, with modernity, very few would believe all this, but then who knows if maybe playing on the subconscious!
Thus, possibly the timidity of the Govt!
If the Govt 'rides it out' once more, then there will be a groundswell against the Govt. Politics in our country is basically for power and pelf and 5 years out of office is an unimaginable torture to them and their extended family. Therefore, they will have to act. There were the nuclear weapons when Kargil happened. Yet, they had to act and they did.
There is always the possibility of Pakistan using a tactical nuclear weapon.The world will be inflamed at the audacity and it will add to their ire of Pakistan being the womb of terrorism and a safe haven for terrorists. Pakistan will be in the international doghouse.
They cannot use the nuclear tactical weapons everywhere and the Indians would not be having a single thrust. It will be on a very broad front. The nuclear fallout will also affect the Pakistanis themselves and their civilians too. It will also affect civilian life in Pakistan after the war because of the residual effect.
It is a gamble that India has to take if they mean business and send a message that enough is enough.
The war will finally be called to a halt by the international powers. And if a tac nuke is used, it will be sooner than later.
If Pakistan is in the international doghouse and the war will be halted, India would have her way in the negotiations that would take place after the war since the world would not be favourable to those who use nuclear weapons, be they tactical or strategic.
I don't think the India, even if she ever becomes a regional power, will be in the same mode as the real powers.Quote:
If India were to become the sole regional power would it likely become aggressive and predatory like the US, Russia and China? Somehow I don't think so. How would a "timid" power impose itself on those in its region of influence?
The problem with India is her cultural psyche. Pacifism and riding the high moral high horse. Right from her Independence, this malaise has overpowered her thinking - this Gandhism of extending the other cheek and all that.
In the first Kashmir war, when the Indian Army was knocking at the door of Muazzfarabad and had linked Uri with Punch, good old 'holy' Nehru, called a stop and like a good boy left it to the UN leaving this unholy mess in Kashmir.
Recalled the troops back to Uri. My uncle was commanding this Brigade.
Instead of understanding realpolitik, Nehru ensured the Indian Army to be a ceremonial army with the Ordnance Factories producing coffee machines, till shaken by China in 1962. In fact, China by doing so, actually did India a favour and woke her from the Rip Van Winkle like eternal sleep!
1965, Pakistan attacked in the Rann of Kutch and like good boys, we allowed Wilson to mediate and part with some of the land. Pakistan, gleeful at this 'victory' clandestinely started Op Gibraltar and when the Kashmiri Muslim gujjars reported the infiltration, escalated it into a full fledged war! That Pakistan failed in its design is another story.
Then at Tashkent, the meek Indian PM Lal Bahadur Shastri (otherwise a good and honest man) was browbeaten to give up strategic gains like the Haji pir Pass.
1971 was a different matter when a woman (and they are dangerous and vicious! :) ), who was called the 'dumb doll, by her political opponents, was the PM. She taught a lesson to Pakistan, the wounds of which they are still licking.
Thereafter, Kargil where the Nation forced action. The Indian culture lulled all with the 'bus diplomacy' and the Mohajir Musharaff (they are the clever lot in Pakistan. In fact, I have published on the rational of the internal struggle between the 'sons of the soil' and the Mohajir (refugees from India) ) pulled the rug from under the feet of India. The fact that India did not cross the LC and enlarge the war was 'mature and statesmanlike' - sops given to satisfy personal egos by the international community petrified that a nuclear war was in the offing!!
Rampant terrorism spawned from across including Mumbai and India plays the role of 'matured statesmanlike' behaviour as many die! Human lives are cheap, so long it is not a politician's or their family's in India!
Like there is deep resentment against the US in Pakistan, there is deep resentment and its is growing at the supine behaviour of the Indian Govt in India.
But then there is saving grace for the pacifist. As more and more Indians become affluent, the less will be their desire to wreck their Nest Egg!
Quote:
PS: Ray as India is one of the few affected countries seemingly taking an aggressive approach to the rapidly spilling over Somali piracy your input (if you can find the time) would IMHO be welcome in the More Piracy Near Somalia thread.
Interesting comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbfpo
PS Sorry if I rambled.
I think enlightened Indians should really grow up out of this "Islam envy". This is not the place for such (always lethal) arguments, but really, we live in a postmodern world where medieval ideologies are still useful for some purposes, but to look at them as if they in themselves will change the fate of nations is to miss what we have learned about human beings in the centuries since 1250 AD.
What works in this century can work in a Hindu country or a Muslim country or a Christian country or a Buddhist country or whatever, because what works involves sidelining and modifying a lot of pre-modern ideas. And those who think that the premodern ideas are complete and workable as they were..well, they didnt even try that in Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, so that is not even worth discussing.
You are absolutely right. I totally agree with you.
I was merely indicating the philosophy that drives India. The timidity and its rationale.
I was not on a discussion of religion per se. Too volatile for comfort. And anyway, I am handicapped on my knowledge of religion.
Interestingly, it may be news to many, but this timidity transcends religions in India. For instance the poems in Kashmiri of the famed Kashmiri Sufi saint Shah Gafoor :
Dah chhi avatar sah lagina tharun
Meh zan prazlan naran chum
Ram Ram karun gau nam sandarun
Dharnai dharun…Soham su
(There are ten incarnations of God, One should never be nervous. Narayana dazzle like the Moon. Repetition of the name Rama leads to one’s salvation. Meditate upon the Eternal).
So, this indicates the Indian docile mindset that transcends religion.
I was quoting from a book based on history of the time of Rana Sangha and the Mughuls.
I don’t think there is any envy involved. It is more of a reflection that there is overwhelming docility of the Indian mind and it is hardly a practical way to approach life. It is fine for those who are totally steeped in Soham but not for realpolitik.
In modern times, once the spiritual is left beyond the temporal, peace and sanity can prevail and of that there is no doubt.
Then, there would not be the turmoil in the name of religion.
Then, there will be no terrorists either, be it 9/11, 7/11 or Mumbai.
The Indian mindset is so evident in our approach. 9/11 brought instant retribution, while repeated terrorism including the Mumbai carnage, only encourages India to extend her hand of friendship and peace while people die, knowing fully well that terrorist are being harboured across the border.
While what you state 'we live in a postmodern world where medieval ideologies are still useful for some purposes, but to look at them as if they in themselves will change the fate of nations is to miss what we have learned about human beings in the centuries since 1250 AD' is indeed a way forward, but observing India's neighbourhood, one is not too sure that your prescription is what is being observed.
I was asked the Indian to explain the Indian docility and that is what I did.
I had no intention to discuss religion because I understand very little of it since it is not a structured religion where one has to attend religious instructions as a matter of lifestyle.
In case it has upset you, I would reiterate that it was not my intention.
You must surely be joking? Who could possibly have "Islam envy"? What is "Islam envy"?Quote:
Originally Posted by omarali50
No rambling IMO. I thank you for your reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
JMA,
Just for the record.
Indian Muslims reaction to Osama's killing.
It is also a misconception that Muslims in India are the illiterate masses who have not found their place in the sun.Quote:
What does the death of Osama bin Laden mean to Indian Muslims? How do Islamic scholars see the world's biggest terrorist? A range of views emerged in conversations with a cross-section of Muslim intelligentsia. Yet one emotion seemed to override all others: Islam can never condone the perversities of Osama, and certainly not Indian Muslims who have carried the terrorist tag because of this one man. One budding Muslim writer retorted: why do you even ask us about him?
Jamia Millia Islamia Vice-Chancellor Najeeb Jung said there was no reaction to Osama's death on his campus or in the nearby Muslim neighbourhood of Jamia Nagar. “This is a reflection of the Indian Muslim's disinterest in Osama.” Mr. Jung also rejected the notion that Muslims elsewhere could feel sympathy for Osama, except perhaps in pockets of Pakistan.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/article1989005.ece
Education beyond the madrassas have given them a chance to be in the mainstream and they are no longer insular. They are well aware of the world and find it very sad that because of a few 'hotheads', the world is painting them with the same brush! Of course, there will be those who will find religion über alles, but then they are fringe lunatics.
Education makes all the difference in outlook. Has there ever been a problem of serious proportion with other religious groups? No.
Wherever there is a lack of literacy, there has been problems.
In UP (the largest state of India) there has been communal issues and caste issues, but in Kerala which has the highest literacy and Gulf money has also a high proportion of Muslims (Moplas), there has been no problems!
In fact, in Kerala, irrespective of religion (Hindu, Christian or Muslim), they celebrate a festival called Onam!! Onam marks the homecoming of the legendary King Maveli.
Education and affluence speaks!!
JMA, "Islam envy" is the phenomenon in which some Hindu nationalist groups (and a penumbra of other Indians) overstate the great solidarity and "self-esteem" of Muslims (Ray's position is more nuanced, but more on that later) and contrast it with the supposed timidity and disunity of Indians (and seems to imply that if only Hindus were more like Muslims in these matters, they would do so much better). There is an element of truth in the unity and solidarity argument (but only an element) and very little in the "timidity" argument. Anyway, that comment would have been instantly understandable to my Indian friends on our own blog (free advert: brownpundits.com), even if they disagreed with details of my argument. But the bottom line is that this is all "leakage" from my other life and has little or no place on this blog.
My apologies for being unclear and for bringing in extraneous (and mostly irrelevant) discussions.
Ray, my point (made as a genuine indophile) was that there is no need to keep repeating some stereotype of timid Indians. India is a work in progress (slowly, but fairly steadily) and its reactions to Pakistan are not necessarily timid or aggressive, most of the time they are realistic. One can definitely dispute particular actions and reactions, but a lot of the narrative one hears in India around that criticism tends to irritate me because I think it is historically inaccurate and its not even useful as propaganda. But that's just me.
Cyril has some interesting points: http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/20/more-...e-for-now.html
From Bill Roggio's LONG WAR JOURNAL (better detail than the previous Reuters/et al MSM releases)
Pakistani Navy base under siege
May 22, 2011
Quote:
Terrorists have attacked a Pakistani naval airbase in the city of Karachi today, sparking an hours-long battle that has resulted in at least two naval aircraft destroyed and several people killed. Fighting is still ongoing and hostages have been taken, according to reports.
A large terrorist assault team, thought to be between 15 to 20 men strong and heavily armed, stormed Pakistani Naval Station Mehran Sunday night in a coordinated, complex attack.
The heavily armed gunmen penetrated the security at the base from three gates and fanned out and attacked aircraft hangers, and military personnel. Two Pakistani naval aircraft are reported to have been destroyed. The military confirmed that one P-3 Orion maritime surveillance plane was destroyed. At least three other aircraft are said to have been damaged in the attack.
Four naval personnel and four terrorists have been reported killed during the fighting. The terrorists are said to have taken hostages and have taken control of one or more building on the base. At least ten terrorists are said to be holding the hostages.
Pakistani naval commandos, Marines, and Rangers have been deployed and have been fighting the gunmen.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...er-attack.htmlQuote:
Two P-3C Orion, a maritime surveillance aircraft, were targeted and destroyed in the attack, Haq said. The U.S. handed over the aircraft to the Pakistan navy in April 2010 and said it will receive a total of eight by 2012, according to the U.S. Central Command website.
Pakistani Taliban Behind Naval Base Attack
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pakistan-se...185218333.html
Is the Pakistan Navy fully in agreement with the Army about the jihadi strategy or is there some friction between the services? Does anybody know?
http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/Quote:
The Faisal Base of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) located about 10 KMs from the Karachi internationl airport is what the PAF calls a Joint User airfield. It is used by the PAF and the air arms of the Pakistan Army and Navy as well as by the VVIP squadron. All air surveillance movements over the sea --- whether by the PAF or by the Army or by the PN--- are controlled from this base.......
3.The squadrons of the Naval Air Arm are stationed in PNS Mehran.These are the P3C Orion Squadron (28 Sqn), the Atlantic Squadron (29 Sqn), the Fokker Squadron (27 Sqn), the Seaking Squadron (111 Sqn) and the Alouette Squadron (333 Sqn).
4. While the Naval Air Arm was raised primarily to provide maritime surveillance capability against India, it has been playing, in addition, a counter-terrorism role since the US started its Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan in October,2001. This counter-terrorism role consists of air surveillance to prevent any sea-borne intrusions of Al Qaeda and to detect any terrorist plans for attacks on ships bringing supplies for the NATO forces in Afghanistan. The supplies are landed in the Karachi port and then moved by trucks to Afghanistan.....
6. The daring attack and the inability of the Navy to prevent it are likely to add to the feelings of humiliation in the Pakistani Armed Forces which have been prevalent since the Abbottabad raid.
You can see my comments at http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksd...omar-ali-.html
Your comments are interesting.
However, in 1971, while you apparently blame the US for token resistance against India, you could be more fair towards the US by analysing the geostrategic situation that prompted the US to do what they did.
It would be worthwhile to also indicate as to why, the all weather friend of Pakistan, China steered clear!!
That notwithstanding, on Afghanistan why do you feel that the GHQ was on an out of the world trip and the right wing requires to 're-write' their narratives and what are those narratives they have written.
Pakistan maybe led by more ambitious and intelligent people at this time, but unless they change their curriculum in schools that emphasise on Islam uber alles and their Hate India and Hindus agenda, nothing can change, internationally or regionally.
Education in Pakistan = half-truths, even falsehoods.Quote:
In an extensive study conducted by Nayyar and Ahmad Salim, in 2002, the following four themes emerged most strongly in history textbooks in Pakistan: that Pakistan is for Muslims alone; the Ideology of Pakistan is deeply interlinked with faith; one should never trust Hindus and India; and students should take the path of Jihad and martyrdom.
Written by:
Nadeem F. Paracha
Dawn Newspaper
http://www.forumpakistan.com/educati...ds-t30712.html
and
The Subtle Subversion
Editors: A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim
http://sdpi.org/sdpi-old/whats_new/r...&TextBooks.pdf
I am not blaming the US for "token support' to Pakistan in 1971. I think even the token support was a moral failure (not unexpected....I am not claiming that I expect the US to act very morally in all situations). I was just pointing out what the official deep state narrative is built on.
If you see all the Pakistani talk shows, you will see that most commentators are unwilling to believe that our beloved Jihadists carried out this attack. The blame is being laid on the USA and India.
They are really really stuck. In my optimistic moments, I do hope that reality will bite at some point. But they really truly HAVE wandered off the reservation and do not seem to be able to change their storyline. It is sad and tragic and it may be fatal.
Reportedly, PAF and Pakistani Navy have more Jihadists.Quote:
Originally Posted by carl
via DoctrineMan
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...f4148641e0%2C0Quote:
Pakistani airmen sabotaged their fighter jets to prevent them from participating in operations against militants along the border with Afghanistan, according to a leaked U.S. Embassy cable.
I think proportions of jihadist sympathizers are similar across the board. Though no one ever asks the Navy about anything,so there is a bit of resentment at the senior officer level..but the moronic narrative is the same.
btw, according to our official history, the naval chief found out we are at war by listening to radio Pakistan announce the fact (I am trying to remember if it was 1971 or 1965...or both...I wouldnt be surprised if its both).
The senior generals know the score (more or less). The airforce is told on a need-to-know basis. Nobody ever remembers to tell the admirals. Its not exactly the senior service in Pakistan.
You should see what Dr Shireen Mazari, director of the institute of strategic studies for a long time, and now senior advisor to opposition politician Imran Khan, and editor of "The Nation" and all-round TV pundit, is saying about this attack: http://www.ahmedquraishi.com/2011/05...ship-is-quiet/
This storyline is being peddled on all the "pro-military" (hint-hint, wink-wink) blogs. It would make ME sabotage a few planes if I happened to be literate and in the armed forces and read this stuff everyday.
Carl asked:After the OBL raid there was a photo of General Kayani at a high-level military meeting and not one naval officer was in the photo. That is one small sign and the Naval HQ is in Islamabad.Quote:
Is the Pakistan Navy fully in agreement with the Army about the jihadi strategy or is there some friction between the services? Does anybody know?
The navy is tiny, IISS Military Balance states 22k (inc. 1400 Marines & 2k Maritime Security Agency); eight submarines and nine principal surface ships. The army is 550k and approx. twenty-four divisions.
On a mundane level the navy has had significant day to day co-operation with Western and other navies since 2001 in the Somali piracy and other joint operations.
Omarali50,
Thanks for the link to Dr Shireen Mazari's article, what a contorted story and so many questions asked. I wonder how did she respond to the LeT attack on Mumbai, that too was a provocation I guess.
I did note that the IISS Military Balance refers to UK 'forward mounting base air elements located at Karachi'. Is that at the naval airbase or another air force base? Speculating now, perhaps the USA also uses Karachi air base facilities?
Added: ITN News here has reported six US trainers were resident on the base.
Dr Shireen Mazari refers to the responding state forces:Fed on a diet of these writings would a Pakistani sailor / marine / Ranger be that eager or committed to robust combat when the situation is so distorted? A whole base taken over by so few!Quote:
What is equally disturbing is to discover that four to six terrorists held the whole base hostage for over sixteen hours and at the end of the operation it was given out that two terrorists may have escaped while four were killed. In comparison eleven of our soldiers were martyred, including our commandos.
The larger air base in Karachi is Masroor, which is 15 miles outside the city (and is said by some to have a few nukes...I would not know).
Shireen Mazari has a pathological hatred of India that goes well beyond normal punditry and mercenary motivations. I dont remember what she said about Mumbai, but I can guess that it was something along the lines "India and the US have conspired to arrange a drama and blame Pakistan"...then she may have changed stories. She is not exactly a stickler for accuracy.
About the poor response time, I think that is the subcontinental norm. Lower level soldiers and officers are usually brave and will not shirk from action, but they dont really train too much, especially for night actions. I can guess (without any inside information beyond growing up in the army) that no one at the base had EVER rehearsed fighting off such an action. It was dark, no one knew how many people were in there, half the time the commandos were probably shooting at each other, especially since naval commandos and SSG both responded.
Soldiers from the Punjab and Pakhtoonkhwah are very good "soldier material" when properly trained and led. The same cannot be said of the officers and the situation gets worse the higher up you go. I am not exaggerating.
One wonders if terrorists alone can take over a base and create this type of a mayhem.Quote:
At least 11 Pakistani servicemen are believed to have been killed, and there are reports that terrorists have taken hostages. The BBC reports that Chinese military personnel are among those held hostage. Washington Post reports: “Some reports said foreigners, possibly Americans, were killed or taken hostage in the attack; a Pakistani navy spokesman said that five Pakistani security personnel were killed and that no foreigners had been on the base.”
There are some commentators in Pakistan who feel that it is an 'inside job'.
http://thetimesofpakistan.com/2011/0...ttack-experts/
Now who are the 'insiders'?
Notwithstanding, it would be safe to assume that there are fundamentalists who are in uniform.
Even those who wanted to kill Musharraf was found to be from the Air Force!
The David Headley case unfolding in an US Court indicates that ISI organised the Mumbai blast.
Therefore, if the Govt and its military encourages jihad, then who can one complain to?
As the Bible says - "As ye sow, so shall ye reap."
One can't say about Pakistan, but in the subcontinent, night training is an important input.
Wars in the subcontinent is normally fought at night!
The Pakistan Army was equipped with Night Vision Devices even before the Indian Army and so that is no excuse. And more so with the generous US military aid.
The tardy reaction, if indeed it was tardy, was that it was possibly never believed that such an importance base could ever be attacked and that too in such a devastating manner!
Another interesting issue is that if US built surveillance aircraft with classified instrumentation were located there, what were the Chinese doing there?
It sounds a lot like a message "See, they are also our enemies (thus we aren't their ally by definition)!"
An informative answer:http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ainst-taliban/
This will suffice for some:There also a reported arrest in Karachi, two days after the OBL raid:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13429316Quote:
Adm. Noman Bashir, the Pakistan navy chief, boasted during an interview on Pakistani television in March that his service had “provided our surveillance aircraft and a contingent of [Pakistan Navy commandos] to operate hand in glove with the Pakistan Army during” a recent offensive against the militants in the tribal areas.
Fuchs, if you are implying that the army did it to convince the US about its anti-jihadi bonafides, then I think you are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuchs
Stick to Uncle Occam's razor. The obvious story is probably true:
1. Jihadis have had free reign in Pakistan for decades. Dozens of training camps, half a million trained terrorists, links with intelligence agencies, a network of madressahs to supply recruits and sanctuaries, a network of supporters and funders. Sympathizers in the armed forces and political parties organized to support them "above ground" (primarily, the Jamat e Islami in educated areas, the JUI in the western region).
2. The top brass calculated that fighting against the US was not a good idea and decided to become allies. But they had neither the ability nor the inclination to take on the jihadist network in a full-frontal assault. More to the point, they have not been able to build up such an ability over time because most of them did not get the full implications of what was being attempted. Getting through the current crisis with minimum damage has been the priority but the goofiness extends in every direction. Even that job has not been done well.The top brass are incompetent (for the most part..i believe General Kiyani is a relative exception, but only relatively speaking) and do not have access to an intellectual foundation for anti-jihadism. They are not the sort of peple who could see that this turn away from Jihadism would have to extend to a turn away from the ideological narrative that supported jihad.
3. Terrorists wanting to make a spectacular strike picked this target because it was easy. Its a large base in the middle of a crowded city. I have seen the aircraft parked there from the road passing by the base. Whether it was naval aviation or air force or army aviation probably made little difference. As in ANY large base, they probably had a few sympathizers in the base. That made the details easier.
4. Only four terrorists seem to have gone in. Maybe 6. The response was as much as the base could manage. No conspiracy is needed to mess up a response in Pakistan or India. A conspiracy well above our abilities would be needed to deliberately prolong anything.
The terrorist networks can do this sort of thing anytime. THAT may have been the main intended message.
Gen Kiyani is taken to be a good Army Chief because, notwithstanding good reasons to take over the governance of Pakistan, he has stayed away from this course.Quote:
Gen. Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, the present Chief of the Army Staff (COAS), Gen. Nadeem Taj, who retired recently, and Lt. Gen. AhmedShuja Pasha, who is on an year’s extension after having reached the age of superannuation on March 18,2011, have, in that order, headed the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) during the period between 2005 (month not known) and May 2,2011, when Osama bin Laden was reportedly living near the Pakistan Military Academy (PMA) at Abbottabad, about 100 kms from Islamabad.
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5C...paper4476.html
However, he is deeply involved in the use of Pakistan's 'strategic assets' i.e. the terrorists.
So long as there is this contradiction of joining in the WoT on one hand, and protecting and nurturing the 'strategic assets' on the other, nothing constructive will emerge with regards to the WoT or for the safety of Pakistan itself!Quote:
Pakistan’s Strategic Asset: Osama bin Laden
So, it was a little awkward when our Pakistani “partner” in the war on terror issued a warning to America. “Let no one draw any wrong conclusions,” said Gilani of the Navy Seals’ 40-minute in-and-out bin Laden bug hunt. “Any attack against Pakistan’s strategic assets whether overt or covert will find a matching response. Pakistan reserves the right to retaliate with full force. No one should underestimate the resolve and capability of our nation and armed forces to defend our sacred homeland.”
http://www.teapartytribune.com/2011/...ama-bin-laden/
I think that General Kiyani is not considered smart because he did not take over. He would take over in 5 minutes if he thought it could work, but its not a good time to take over. He is considered smart because he keeps his mouth shut (unlike that buffoon Musharraf) and seems to have some vague idea that Pakistan's army has to change its relationship with the jihadis or give up its relationship with the rest of the world. But that's about it.
OK, here is my prediction. Eventually, responsibility for reworking Pakistan will be given mostly to China. IF India can avoid the temptation of falling for its own propaganda and getting over-excited and can just sit tight for ten years, all this nonsense will work its way through the system in Pakistan (with great violence, but mostly within the country) and will die off (literally, in most cases). Its not a viable way of thinking. But it may be best to let China deal with it. Its a very difficult job and neither India nor the USA are in a good position to perform this therapy...they can help a little, but most of the dirty work will be done by China. Of course, the key is to somehow convince the Chinese to also pay for it. The arrangement whereby the US borrows money from China and throws it in the general direction of afpak is not a sensible arrangement. But I guess the Chinese invented money and they are not going to fall too easily into this quicksand. Oh well, back to the drawing board. ....I am sorry, its hard to keep up the "optimism" for too long. But one tries.
What actions are visualised that the Chinese would have to do to 'rework' Pakistan?
Pakistan has 'donated' the Shaksgam Valley of Kashmir to China and now China has its troops in other parts of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. Who knows if more land will be 'donated' for favours given by China. That surely could not be an acceptable input whereby China will 'rework' Pakistan?
What is the guarantee that Pakistan would not sponsor terrorist actions against India (during the 10 years suggested) for India to 'avoid the temptation of falling for its own propaganda' ?
What is this 'own propaganda' India is undertaking?
Is it too much to want the perpetrators of the Mumbai carnage be brought to justice? Pakistan was in a denial mode.
However, the US Court proceedings underway are clearly indicating that Headley and Rana were used by the LeT and ISI to carry out the carnage and the Mullah leader of the LeT was personally involved, as also was Major Iqbal of the ISI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/wo...24headley.html
In your opinion, India should forget what has been done so far to India, so that China can 'rework' Pakistan?
I may add that India has shown remarkable patience with the terrorist attacks to include the Mumbai carnage.
Lastly, it is fine for China to publicly profess undying love for Pakistan.
But in real terms, what has China actually done apart from building infrastructure that will basically benefit them and their strategic interests.
I fail to understand why Pakistanis require to look for 'outside' help to solve their own internal problems.
It is for the Pakistanis themselves to cleanse their country since they best know what is good for them.
No outside help, even their all weather friend, China, will be able to clean Pakistan.
US has tried to help, with advice, money, military hardware, CIA to nab the terrorists as also assist the ISI, but has not been successful as desired.
China, will hardly part with their money since they are desperately trying to catch up with the USA.
Therefore, Pakistanis must boldly work their future. They alone know how the mess they are in, be it terrorists, financial woes, poor governance, the military and ISI being the power behind the façade of a democratic government etc etc, has been created. They alone thereby are the best judge to clean the Augean stables.
The world has suffered enough, be it WTC, London Underground, Madrid bombings or Mumbai carnage, at the hands of the Pakistani religious terrorists, state sponsored or otherwise. The world is hardly in a position to allow a 10 year free run for Pakistan to be reworked. The trust deficit is too deep to take the risk!
The world population is more precious than the antics of frenzied religious fanatics!
My suggestion is not that India should stop pressing Pakistan to stop training and sheltering terrorists. It should continue to do that. some of that pressure does work incidentally.
My suggestion is that India should not get carried away with propaganda about how its only its restraint (or "timidity") that stops it from whacking Pakistan and making sure Pakistan doesnt do anything bad ever again. What stops it is the fact that the military gap between Pakistan and India is not as large as sometimes imagined or portrayed. There is no easy way for India to whack pakistan without getting badly whacked itself in the process (if you are interested, I would guess that India will "win" any such war, but it will be the mother of all pyrrhic victories). So, lacking easy options, India has to bite its lip and work on getting its house in order and use whatever leverage it has with Pakistan's main sponsors (the US, China, Saudi Arabia) to pressurise Pakistan...which is actually something that those sponsors are already doing btw, and which pressure is not without results (though results are obviously not ideal at this time...we do not live in an ideal world).
Propaganda may require that threats be made and bombastic statements be issued. I am not a good judge of what is good propaganda and what is a waste of time and money.
"getting carried away" is starting to believe your own propaganda and missing real opportunities because of that or doing something adventurous that you may regret.
As you may have gathered, I have no interest in promoting some paknationalist fantasy on this or any other forum. But I think its good to be realistic, at least in private. There is actually a very real constituency for peace in pakistan. And increasing trade, travel and cultural exchange with India are helping to cement that constituency. A lot of the panic in "paknationalist" circles comes from their insecurity about their domestic position in pakistan.
About what China will do. I have no idea. That was a partly sarcastic comment. But seriously, I do think that China does not believe it is in its interest to promote Pakistani jihadism too much. My confidence is not really about China. I think modern society is bigger than China or India. Modern capitalism includes and uses nationalism and its associated grand strategies and strings of pearls or whatnot, but it does put some practical considerations into play. China and India are not just competitors in the nineteenth century world, they are also partners in making money. One element does not completely overwhelm the other, but those considerations do have their effects. Besides, China is a country of infidels with 60 million or more Muslims living in its borders. It has its own reasons for being very suspicious of jihadism. Just like there are "strategic thinkers" in India who dream about getting strangled with strings of pearls every night, there are strategic thinkers in china who dream about such things. But they are not the only people doing the dreaming.
Of course, things could go wrong. Capitalism did not stop capitalists from fighting ruinous world wars (and most capitalists did not make money from those wars, though some did). I think modern life is very cruel and sad in many ways. But it is very powerful and its tentacles manage to work their way through in many strange ways. It may eventually lead to socialism, who knows, but in the meantime, it will continue to eat its way through many older notions and will #### them out in places like Pakistan. Via China or via India or via America, I dont know.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/pakistan-me...090535735.htmlQuote:
ISLAMABAD - Pakistan's military was ridiculed and accused of complicity in the media on Tuesday after a small group of militants laid siege to a naval air base, holding out for 16 hours against about 100 commandos and rangers.
*
"Political rhetoric and a Cabinet Defence Committee meeting are not going to solve this one," read an editorial in the English-language daily, The News. "This is an epic failure exposing an existential threat that will need epic leadership to countervail."
An editorial in the Urdu-language Jang, one of nuclear-armed Pakistan's biggest and most pro-military newspapers, said the attacks illustrated "a weakness of security measures".
"In very polite words, it can be called worrisome negligence."
Others went beyond incompetence and suggested that the attackers had help from within the military.
"Did the Taliban raiders have information inside the naval base?" wrote Dawn, another English-language daily. "Such a possibility cannot be ruled out, because the involvement of serving personnel in several previous attacks has been well-established
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110524...20110524181011Quote:
WASHINGTON – Pakistan has returned the wreckage of a US helicopter used in the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden early this month, a Pentagon spokesman said Tuesday.
"The wreckage of the helicopter destroyed in the bin Laden operation was returned over the weekend and is now back in the United States," Colonel Dave Lapan told AFP.
Restraint and timidity is not Indian Govt propaganda. Given the obsession of our Prime Minister to have peace at all costs with Pakistan, no matter how many Indians die in the bargain and no matter how many stout denials come from Pakistan of its complicity, it is the perception of the Indian media and the Indian public at large.Quote:
Originally Posted by omarali50
It is the Pakistani perception that India aims to ‘whack Pakistan’ for being ‘naughty’. There are no suggestions to that effect in India. That is why the Sundarjee Doctrine is outdated and instead it is the “Cold Start” which is the current flavour.
The gap between the militaries of India and Pakistan is indeed narrow, thanks to the munificence of the US; at least, the technological gap! In fact, Pakistan is possibly better off. India cannot match up since it pays hard cash so that there are no strings attached! One has to lose some, if one does not want to be under vassalage. No offence meant, but the Pakistani Parliamentary proceedings indicates the outcry that Pakistan will not tolerate violations of its sovereignty. Obviously, none would issue such statements unless they were violated in letter and spirit. And would it not be a truism that the said sovereignty was already willingly bartered, and so why the hue and cry?!
As far as ‘wins’, I presume no war is without losses. One has to accept it. However, how long is India expected to remain supine and be bled?
It must be appreciated that there is also a threshold of getting ‘whacked’ by Pakistan through terrorist attacks and pan Islamic movements in Kashmir in the name of ‘independence of Kashmir’. If Pakistan was really serious about ‘Independence of Kashmir’ could she not have given the same to the part of Kashmir held by Pakistan? That would have surely put pressure on India. In reality, all this piety and heart bleed for Kashmiris is nothing but a cover for pure and simple land grab!!
Are the Kashmiris really keen on Independence? Yes, some. Like the Hurriyat, which is but a Pakistani supported and a pan Islamic funded organisation that claims to represent the Kashmiris? If Kashmiris were really keen for Independence, then why are they regularly participating in well subscribed elections at all levels of government and governance (observed by foreign media and diplomats) and why the huge enthusiasm to join the Indian army and the police (as witnessed in the recruiting rallies)? Surely that puts paid to the theory that the Kashmiris are raring to go for independence. The demonstrations in Srinagar have been established to be a well paid hire a mob show. Happens even within hinterland India and the cadre based organisations like the Communists and Hurriyat require no time to organise such shows.
In so far as Indians ‘getting their house in order’, the conditions are not that chaotic or unmanageable as in Pakistan. That is so evident. No dissatisfaction in a country can be organised without funds. Guess who is funding them or giving sanctuaries? And that includes vested interest funding the Maoists too!
US, China and Saudi Arabia are indeed helping Pakistan. They are only keeping Pakistan propped up; the US with financial and military aid, China with pious platitudes and Saudi Arabia through funding of fundamentalists, madrassas and shoring up the Pakistan National Budget because Pakistan does not have the money to even pay the interest for their foreign debt!! If they stopped doing so, Pakistan would collapse like a house of cards. And obviously, they will demand and get the leverage they want to fulfil their national interest.
One does not get carried away by propaganda. One gets ‘carried away’ by acts that they see happening and the brazen denial of those who promote such horrendous happenings. If there is a real constituency for peace in Pakistan, don’t you think it is high time they stand up and be counted, rather than cowering down and fearing their own Zia created terrorists?
One of the best ways to start thinking of Peace is to desist from the temptation that religion is the be all and end all of even temporal issues. Nayyar and Salim (Pakistani intellectuals) in their report on Pakistan’s education system – The Subtle Subversion – (Link given earlier – have indicated that unless textbooks for children that emphasise Islam being uber alles, the glorification violence through issues like jihad, the Hate India and Hindus or falsification of history such as Pakistan was there from the 7th Century etc etc, the mindset cannot change. There lies the rot. All pontificating of 10 year moratorium to ‘rework’ Pakistan by China will otherwise fall flat on its face.
Were you being sarcastic over the China comment of yours? I seem to have missed that since the syntax did not indicate so. China, being Godless, maybe sold to moneymaking. However, in India, God still exists. There is a slight trace of conscience still left.
The ‘string of pearls’ is a US postulation and I daresay they are wrong. When one churns up the economic, political and strategic inputs, one has to stop playing the ‘Pin the Tail on the Donkey’. One does not dream of such things, one merely prepares for the reality and not dream Peace as Abu Ben Adhem did.
This statement –– is intriguing!Quote:
but in the meantime, it will continue to eat its way through many older notions and will #### them out in places like Pakistan. Via China or via India or via America
Do I see a lament and a blame game where the ills of Pakistan is being parcelled off on the shoulders of the US, Indian and China? I wonder if these nations filled Pakistan with a grandiose delusion that it was one of the budding powers that be. Did these nations encourage the jihadis to run a riot in Pakistan and internationally? I fail to see the logic.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...283515312.htmlQuote:
ISLAMABAD—The Taliban has no plans to attack Pakistan's nuclear arsenal, its spokesman declared, as the militants kept up their campaign to avenge Osama bin Laden's death, ramming a pickup truck laden with explosives into a police station and killing six people.
*
"Pakistan is the only Muslim nuclear-power state," Mr. Ehsan said in a telephone interview, adding that the Taliban had no intention of changing that fact. The Taliban, after all, aim to take over Pakistan and its weapons.
Ray, you are arguing with an imaginary person. I have no interest in blaming India or the USA or anyone else for Pakistan's policies. My last line was meant to convey that things will change in Pakistan because giving free reign to armed jihadists is really not a viable way of existing in the world (unless one is willing to dissolve the state and become Somalia). Whether that change happens via Indian actions, American actions or Chinese actions (or, as is mostly likely, a combination of actions by many actors including members of teh Pakistani elite who want to join Barnett's "core" rather than staying in the "gap") is of interest to those who are in the fray, but to a distant observer, those are details. The outcome is either Somalia, or a state willing to enforce its writ against armed terrorists. The route to each destination can be very convoluted.
Omar,
I am not arguing with an 'imaginary' person.
As I see it, you are the best placed person to tell us the actualities in Pakistan.
I place great credence to your words and sentences (though I will concede much of it at times is difficult to understand as desired by you since it is complex in thought, left halfway hanging and then moves on to another thought and so on).
The examples being China assisting and the last sentence of your post previous to the one I am replying.
My contention is simple. No one can help Pakistan, except Pakistan itself.
Pakistan's situation as it is unfolding is becoming really confusing. It is for people like you to help us on our way to understand contemporary Pakistan.
For instance, what do you make of this?
Imran Khan backs army rule, too
How can Imran back army rule and expect the army not to come into power.Quote:
Imran Khan backs army rule, too
'ISLAMABAD: After MQM chief Altaf Hussain’s statement regarding support for martial law-like steps, the chief of Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf (PTI) Imran Khan said his faction would back military rule for ‘stability’ of the country, ARY NEWS reports.....
Khan, however, said the army should not come into power and grab authorities of a civil and democratic government.
http://www.arynews.tv/english/newsdetail.asp?nid=36706
Does it mean a civilian govt, without elections to form such a govt, but having the Army backing?
Or does it mean an elected civil govt backed by the Army?
If he means the latter, isn't the current govt a civil govt backed by the Army?
So, what is the difference?
Is he subtly implying a civil govt headed by himself (Imran Khan), backed by the Army?
If so, it reeks of personal ambition and that does not indicate a desire for governance and 'reworking' Pakistan.
I don't think Imran is much of a practical chap and is more on emotions.
I read that he has said that Pakistan should spurn US aid. Good and patriotic thought. But if US does not give financial aid or if the IMF and WB insist that Pakistan pays up, can good friend China or Saudi Arabia bail out Pakistan and continue to do so forever as the US is doing?
Ray, it is nice to say that only Pakistanis can save Pakistan. But actually Pakistanis are not going to be able to save Pakistan. The Pakistani elite (the common people have very little input in this matter) is divided and all factions have foreign patrons (states as well as "non-state actors") as well as local supporters. It is important to try and see the factions in a reasonably accurate framework. A framework of "independent nation state and its domestic versus foreign policies" is a useful fiction and must be adhered to in some settings, but is not sufficient or accurate enough for the job at hand. Take a look at this news item (or whatever you wish to call it; Saleem Shahzad is a "reporter" with unusual and mysterious sources): http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/ME27Df06.html
Let us assume that the details are true (I am going to argue that even if the details are NOT true, they are near enough to some truth for my purposes, as will become clear); It tells you a few things:
1. The state is deeply penetrated by jihadists.
2. The Jihadists are not in control and neither are the anti-jihadists or those sitting on the fence.
3. The public face of events hides many shocking and unexpected details. This in itself is an important feature of life in Pakistan and it is very important to be cognizant of how far the "inner reality" has moved from life in a democratic modern state or even a semi-functional developing country like India. Without keeping this in mind one ends up applying very misleading categories to events. Every country has hidden conspiracies and hidden layers of decision making. But this is qualitatively different.
The elite is in very very serious trouble. The normal civilian apparatus of the state (the police, the civil administration, the politicians) have long since lost control of the nether world where the terrorists and the army and its intelligence agencies are operating. Nobody is in charge in that world and everybody fears for their life and negotiates with bullets.
I have to run, but more later. I know this is very incomplete and baffling, but I do have a job and need to run. Mull over this till I get some more time...things are worse than they look. But not exactly in the way some critics think: the bad guys are not in control and running a massive con on the world. Nobody is in control and everybody is trying to con someone.
Or thats how it looks to me.
I posted in Post No.198 a link to this book by the journalist / academic Anatol Lieven and have just found another:http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/693...g-order-.thtml
Catching up on my reading pile and this article appeared May 7th, by an experienced UK journalist, Christina Lamb:http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/al...-shadows.thtml
Another reference to Lieven's book: http://tribune.com.pk/story/177749/p...04ac877d2f%2C0
and a comment on the PNS Mehran attack from a leftwing perspective: http://www.viewpointonline.net/kitna...thay-char.html
My own comment on the above column. The first part is about a recent (videographed) killing of 5 unarmed Chechens, including a pregnant woman, at a paramilitary checkpoint in Quetta in Pakistan: I dont think the killing of 5 Chechens at a checkpoint and then making up stories about a great suicide attack foiled by brave soldiers is what sets Pakistan apart. That sort of thing would float by in India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka with similar responses (some human rights activists and the above-ground version of whatever underground group suffered will make some noise, everyone else will forget in a few days or weeks). In fact, many such unjustified killings of unarmed people have happened in India (and the dead are then retroactively recruited into the lashkar e tayaba or the local Maoist group), in Bangladesh (specifically in the Chittagong Hill Tracts), in Sri Lanka (Tamils) and so on. What sets Pakistan apart is the unusual relationship between the state and the main terrorist network.
The people in India and Pakistan are similar, the culture is similar (though slowly diverging), the social problems are similar (though again, diverging), but the terrorism problem is not similar at all. The Indian state, with all its faults and its rickety structures and its incompetence and corruption, is on one side and the terrorists are on the other (the tiny number of Hindu rightwing terrorists may have a somewhat more ambiguous relationship with some elements of the state). In Pakistan, the state itself is divided into terrorist sympathizers, anti-terrorists, agents of various outside powers and time-servers with no loyalty to any idea beyond their own personal interest.
In India, the propaganda of the state as well as most media outlets is directed against the terrorists (the details obviously vary and there are pockets of sympathy for leftwing terrorists and islamist terrorists and hindutva terrorists among some sections, but I am talking about the mainstream view). In Pakistan the mainstream opinion is as divided as the state; most people are not even aware of the extent of support the terrorists were provided by the army. People in Mansehra and Azad Kashmir and other places where the training camps were located are obviously more aware than the rest of the country, but the educated elite in particular has little direct experience of the vast jihadi enterprise…and so on.
Its a unique situation.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/majority-.../155213-3.html
An interview with the former Pakistan Foreign Secretary.
His comments on Pakistan tiring of its fundamentalism is of interest.
Some sections of the establishment are starting to see that the jihadi course may not be viable. But others remain determined:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/30/journ...s-missing.html
The journalist who broke the story behind the PNS Mehran attack has disappeared in Islamabad.
Journalist Saleem Shahzad found dead near Islamabad | Pakistan | DAWN.COM.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/31/car-b...i-alamgir.html
I dont know if this has been confirmed by other news organizations, but Dawn is generally reliable.
btw, Kiyani sahib went to school in Sarai Alamgir. This might be a message to him (i doubt if it is a message FROM him…I personally think he is not a bad person, but he lacks the means to clean the Augean stables).
So, whodunnit? A lot of people will immediately say “the ISI” and of course, they may be right. But it could also be jihadis (or the jihadi wing of the ISI) killing two birds with one stone.
Bad business either way. Very bad business.
Now they are saying he was found near mandi bahauddin, so please scratch my conspiracy theory about sending a message to Kiyani.
Also scratch the part about Kiyani sahib being a "good man". How would I know that? I am clutching at straws here...
What I mean by I am clutching at straws: if Kiyani and his team are fully involved in this business (rather than being incompetent goofs who cannot control more ideologically determined juniors) then imagine what disasters are coming our way in the future...