Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 51 of 51

Thread: Honor, murder and "the law".

  1. #41
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    Actually, old-fashioned redneck male types who believe in the protection of women - and in a little old-fashioned populist justice - would seem better.
    Hadn't thought of that,but sounds pretty good. Out of my lane so to speak but I have heard that there are actually "Jury Consultants" who do nothing but specialize in this.

  2. #42
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I'd be curious to hear some views on that specific point - particularly from the folks in law enforcement. I'm thinking about lower class, black teens who grow up in the ghetto, who seem to identify themselves as members of a class that is oppressed by the government - particularly the law enforcement personnel. Because their identity is in large part based upon opposition to law enforcement, going to jail is a badge of honor. It is respectable to earn a living in a manner that is illegal or otherwise flaunts society's norms. Any law directed at their anti-social behavior is immediately viewed as a government reprisal against their way of life (for example, laws against possession of crack were argued to be biased against blacks rather than against crack possessors). Am I way off base with this?
    Very accurate based upon my experience.

  3. #43
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Olympia WA
    Posts
    531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I'd be curious to hear some views on that specific point - particularly from the folks in law enforcement. I'm thinking about lower class, black teens who grow up in the ghetto, who seem to identify themselves as members of a class that is oppressed by the government - particularly the law enforcement personnel. Because their identity is in large part based upon opposition to law enforcement, going to jail is a badge of honor. It is respectable to earn a living in a manner that is illegal or otherwise flaunts society's norms. Any law directed at their anti-social behavior is immediately viewed as a government reprisal against their way of life (for example, laws against possession of crack were argued to be biased against blacks rather than against crack possessors). Am I way off base with this?
    There was some justification too the argument that "crack" laws were biased against blacks. This was based on the fact the punishment for an equal amount of crack to an equal amount of cocaine was disproportionately heavier for the crack possessor. Since crack was primarily used by urban black poor and cocaine was used by middle class whites and the addictive/physical damaging properties of both drugs are similar, there likely was a bias.
    Reed
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

  4. #44
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Jury Consultants

    Yup, they do exist - the lawyers' equivalent of HTTs. Very expensive and sometimes more voodoo than useful.

    Mine was the country boy version - which works in small counties (i.e., Northern Michigan, whose congressional district covers 1/2 of Michigan's landmass). The idea is networking.

    If juror 32 is from a small community, you call up your friends there (swear them to absolute secrecy - actually they are more worried about you telling the world what they say) and find out everything they are willing to tell you about juror 32, that person's friends, family, enemies, etc. Basically, a list of pretty standard questions depending on the case.

    If the case was in a county where I had no or little network, I'd associate a lawyer there who had a network and knew how to use it. The bottom line is that you end up with a list of Yes, Probably Yes, Don't Know, Probably No, No. You then become better informed when you meet the jurors at the voir dire when the jury is selected.

    Let us be clear. A trial lawyer is not looking for a "fair and impartial" jury. E.g., if I represented Gus Hall in the 1950's, I'd want a jury of Communists or as near as I could get to them. If I represented Tom Metzger or David Duke more recently, I would want Stormfronters or as near as I could get to them.

    I would get neither because the guy on the other side would be knocking them out by challenges - as would I to "his jurors". So, assuming the jury array (all prospective jurors) is inclusive of the community's demographics, the net result is as close to a "fair and impartial" jury as we can get.

    All this is not news to you, Slap, but it may be informative to those here who have not been involved in litigation.

  5. #45
    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    681

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    There was some justification too the argument that "crack" laws were biased against blacks. This was based on the fact the punishment for an equal amount of crack to an equal amount of cocaine was disproportionately heavier for the crack possessor. Since crack was primarily used by urban black poor and cocaine was used by middle class whites and the addictive/physical damaging properties of both drugs are similar, there likely was a bias.
    Reed
    The question to ask before a declaration of racism is, "which drug has lead to more crime being committed?" Are more middle class whites committing crimes to get their coke or are poor urban blacks committing more crime to get their crack? I am always skeptical when I hear the R word being thrown around. Sometimes it is fully justified. Sometimes it is not. When I was going through the Q course there was an editorial being passed around where the author stated that Special Forces was a racist organization because they would not do away with the swim test as an application requirement. To my mind it is more racist to suggest that black people can't learn to swim than it is to have a swim test as an entrance requirement, but what do I know, I'm just a white guy from suburban Pennsylvania.

    SFC W

  6. #46
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    The question to ask before a declaration of racism is, "which drug has lead to more crime being committed?" Are more middle class whites committing crimes to get their coke or are poor urban blacks committing more crime to get their crack? I am always skeptical when I hear the R word being thrown around. Sometimes it is fully justified. Sometimes it is not. When I was going through the Q course there was an editorial being passed around where the author stated that Special Forces was a racist organization because they would not do away with the swim test as an application requirement. To my mind it is more racist to suggest that black people can't learn to swim than it is to have a swim test as an entrance requirement, but what do I know, I'm just a white guy from suburban Pennsylvania.

    SFC W
    Would that make you a "bitter clinger"...

  7. #47
    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    681

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Would that make you a "bitter clinger"...
    Til my dying day!

    SFC W

  8. #48
    Council Member Beelzebubalicious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    currently in Washington DC
    Posts
    321

    Default update on the Ayala story

    Man who killed Afghan seeks sentencing leniency
    He says he was reacting to horrific attack on friend
    Wednesday, May 06, 2009
    By Bruce Alpert
    Washington bureau

  9. #49
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default And he got it ...

    Link to article from SWJ Blog thread.

    Ex-contractor given probation in slaying of Afghan
    By MATTHEW BARAKAT – 2 hours ago

    ALEXANDRIA, Va. (AP) — A former military contractor was sentenced Friday to probation for shooting and killing a handcuffed prisoner in Afghanistan.
    ...
    Loyd's family has been among Ayala's strongest supporters. Loyd's mother, Patricia Ward, noted in a letter to the judge that several of Loyd's friends offered to serve Ayala's time for him.

    "His reaction was perfectly normal in my mind," wrote Ward, who said that she likely would have done the same thing.

    Ayala's lawyers said his experience, rather than steeling him to keep his emotions in check, left him with latent combat stress that reared up as he dealt with the emotions and adrenaline of the attack on Loyd and the struggle to subdue Salam. At one point in the struggle Salam had grabbed the barrel of a soldier's rifle.

    "Without knowing it, Mr. Ayala was vulnerable to errors in judgment under combat conditions" because of the accumulated combat-related stress, wrote federal public defender Michael Nachmanoff.
    Same defense argument as in Anatomy of a Murder - with similar result. No complaint from this lawyer (see Slap's post #20 & JMM's #35 in this thread).

  10. #50
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    While I was somewhat surprised by probation, I'll take it.

    Buy this judge a beer or whatever for what to me is amazingly straightforward "justice".
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 05-09-2009 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Add 'u' to make Buy.

  11. #51
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Judge Hilton

    Judge Claude M. Hilton is a US District judge on "senior status" (semi-retired) - something like JMM's status as a "senior lawyer"; except he makes more money than I do.

    Seriously, from Judge Hilton's official bio, Wiki1 and Wiki2, a fair inference is that he is center-right to the extent he has any political slant.

    Of more importance to this case, is the fact that Judge Hilton was assigned to the FISA court (2000-2007) - so, he knows more about classified stuff re: AQ-Taliban than the average bear. He also knows something about Astan & Pstan - and the AQ-Taliban types there - from the public record:

    Wednesday, December 03, 2008
    From Paintball to Mumbai
    by Terry Jeffrey

    The defiant words a former third-grade teacher spat at a judge in Alexandria, Va., in April are more poignant now that sources in the Indian and U.S. governments are saying they believe Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET), a Pakistan-based terrorist group, was behind the mass murder in Mumbai, India, last week.

    "What government was supposed to be intimidated by my actions?" Ali Asad Chandia asked U.S. District Judge Claude Hilton at the April hearing where the judge reconfirmed Chandia's 15-year prison sentence, according to The Associated Press. "Do you think the government of India will feel intimidated by a few boxes of paintballs?"

    Chandia taught at an Islamic school in the Maryland suburbs before being convicted in 2006 of "providing material support to terrorists." .... [much more in article]
    Since I don't know Judge Hilton, I can't say that he is a part of the beer-drinking crowd of "old-fashioned redneck male types who believe in the protection of women - and in a little old-fashioned populist justice" (see post #41 above) - but, I'd like to think so.
    Last edited by jmm99; 05-09-2009 at 10:39 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. John Robb's "The Switch"
    By Bill Moore in forum Futurists & Theorists
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 11-19-2008, 02:01 AM
  2. "The Folly of 'Asymmetric War' " is the title
    By Ken White in forum Strategic Compression
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-20-2008, 01:55 PM
  3. "The Global Counter Insurgency" Some Thoughts
    By Gian P Gentile in forum Global Issues & Threats
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-19-2008, 01:50 AM
  4. "The era of the big footprint is over."
    By Granite_State in forum Catch-All, GWOT
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-29-2008, 07:20 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •