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Thread: Is an insurgent an insurgent?

  1. #61
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default That's easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Got to agree. Given Kitson's track record, it's a bit of a mystery as to where and why Galula crept into the picture.
    Because Kitson advocated things that he had seen work but some were 'harsh.' Galula advocated unproven theory and opposed 'harsh.'

    Not that many Americans like nice theories as opposed to harsh reality or are inclined to try their damndest to take the easy way out, you understand...

  2. #62
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Because Kitson advocated things that he had seen work but some were 'harsh.' Galula advocated unproven theory and opposed 'harsh.'

    Not that many Americans like nice theories as opposed to harsh reality or are inclined to try their damndest to take the easy way out, you understand...
    Harsh, but true Ken! Actually when it comes to harsh, Roger Trinquier is the guy. A bit too full on for my taste, but his book, "Modern Warfare" should be more widely read than it is.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  3. #63
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Ok, so because of this talk of Kitson, you all sent me on a bit of a quest.

    First to Amazon: WAY too spendy to pick up anything from Kitson there.

    Then on to the SOCOM Library. No luck initially, but finally did find a dusty hardbound copy of "Low Intensity Operations." (The librarian pulled out a well worn photocopy of an article on British COIN that a former SOCOM Commander had brought to him years ago with the task to "Acquire all of the works listed in this bibliography!" Well, he hasn't found them all yet, but he still has the list. "It's nice to see guys reading these old books," he commented as I was heading out with my copy of Kitson in hand. "Well, in my experience, not everything worth knowing was discovered yesterday (Thinking of Ken, of course), and headed back to work.


    It took about 5 pages worth of the Introduction to make a few quick assessments:

    1. This explains so much about WILF. (Though I think you may soften your firm position on "Subversion" vs "Insurgency" when you go back and review the quite rational approach that Kitson lays on on page 2-3 for the terms and definitions he decided to use and how he came to his position, as he recognized that this is definitely an area where reasonable minds can differ)
    2. This is very clear and forthright and should be an enjoyable read that will provide some very usable insights.
    3. Very British (with the typical blind spot in otherwise clear thought for the provocative role British actions had in creating the conditions that he had spent a career dealing with. I find the same blind spot today in American perspectives on the challenges we face.)
    4. I expect it to be based more about "Knowledge" than "Understanding." To me, knowledge is interesting, but real value comes from understanding. I realize many get uncomfortable when stepping from the firm intellectual terrain of what one can measure, weigh, taste, feel, or see; but one must be able to follow the sign from the facts of what happened to the understanding of why it happened to be able to really apply the lessons appropriately when faced with a new factual situation. This is why I like Galula very much. And Jomini as well for that matter.

    So, this weekend, Brigadier Kitson and I will get to know each other a bit. I look forward to it.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

  4. #64
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    1. This explains so much about WILF. (Though I think you may soften your firm position on "Subversion" vs "Insurgency" when you go back and review the quite rational approach that Kitson lays on on page 2-3 for the terms and definitions he decided to use and how he came to his position, as he recognized that this is definitely an area where reasonable minds can differ)
    I'll read that as a compliment, and yes, it's all true! Read Julian Paget next!
    3. Very British (with the typical blind spot in otherwise clear thought for the provocative role British actions had in creating the conditions that he had spent a career dealing with. I find the same blind spot today in American perspectives on the challenges we face.)
    I merely set forth the policy. Don't care too much what the policy is, as long as it is within my legal and moral compass.
    And Jomini as well for that matter.
    Apparently I have been very remiss in not reading Jomini. Sat down with IDF's "Operational Art" guru the other day, and he basically told me, that I had no hope of getting my head around why people thought the way they currently did, unless I understood the source of the language and the meaning, and that, apparently comes from Jomini. - so fixing that shortly!
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  5. #65
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Everything worth knowing I learned in Kindergarten *...

    With apologies to Robert Fulghum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    "Well, in my experience, not everything worth knowing was discovered yesterday (Thinking of Ken, of course), and headed back to work.
    Like Wilf, I'll take that as a compliment, at least I'm making you think and that's the idea.

    If you kids have come up with anything new, I've yet to see it. Seriously. Though I did like your latest slide...
    This is why I like Galula very much. And Jomini as well for that matter.
    1. This explains so much about BOB'S WORLD. (If you liked those mediocrities you'll love Kitson)...
    2. I long ago bought and read and have reread but really have little use for Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice and while Jomini has had perhaps more influence than Clausewitz (thus making Wilf's comment quite correct), the Jomini approach to strategy is way too rigid IMO and I believe that neither has many, much less all, the answers today. Proving that even old dogs know there are new tricks -- even if many of them are not worth much.
    3. Better, I think, of the older gentlemen (even older than I...) is Moritz Graf von Sachsen -- Maurice, Comte de Saxe -- his Reveries (LINK)should be in the SOCOM library.

    Does CentCom have a Library too? Does MacDill AFB also have a Library?


    * Korea, 1950...

  6. #66
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Default Libraries

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    With apologies to Robert Fulghum.Like Wilf, I'll take that as a compliment, at least I'm making you think and that's the idea.

    If you kids have come up with anything new, I've yet to see it. Seriously. Though I did like your latest slide...1. This explains so much about BOB'S WORLD. (If you liked those mediocrities you'll love Kitson)...
    2. I long ago bought and read and have reread but really have little use for Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice and while Jomini has had perhaps more influence than Clausewitz (thus making Wilf's comment quite correct), the Jomini approach to strategy is way too rigid IMO and I believe that neither has many, much less all, the answers today. Proving that even old dogs know there are new tricks -- even if many of them are not worth much.
    3. Better, I think, of the older gentlemen (even older than I...) is Moritz Graf von Sachsen -- Maurice, Comte de Saxe -- his Reveries (LINK)should be in the SOCOM library.

    Does CentCom have a Library too? Does MacDill AFB also have a Library?


    * Korea, 1950...
    MacDill does have a library, though I confess I've never really gone there looking for substantive books, so can't vouch for what they have on hand.

    As to CENTCOM, it is about 400 yards, and several light years from SOCOM; so I have never had reason to grace their doorstep with my presence. Silly, but there just isn't much cross-pollination.

    SOCOM has a pretty nice collection though of materials you'd find interesting, and the librarian (whose name escapes me) is a tremendous gentleman who with alacrity will find or buy what one needs if he does not have it on hand. If you ever want to stop in, drop me a note and I will happily smuggle you through security and buy you lunch as well.

    Oh, and as to Jomini; I've never really thought of him as a strategist; but have found the principles of war derived from his work to be terrific tools to keep in mind in virtually any tactical planning. Clean, simple, timeless. CvC is undoubtedly the better strategic resource, but I really don't need to muddle through 100 pages of his thinking out loud to then try to sort out the golden nugget that all the experts say is there (reminds me far too much of my Law School experience...). A 10-20 page exsum of CvC would be just about perfect, and would probably actually get read by those who need to read him.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

  7. #67
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Ok, so because of this talk of Kitson, you all sent me on a bit of a quest.


    It took about 5 pages worth of the Introduction to make a few quick assessments:

    1. This explains so much about WILF. (Though I think you may soften your firm position on "Subversion" vs "Insurgency" when you go back and review the quite rational approach that Kitson lays on on page 2-3 for the terms and definitions he decided to use and how he came to his position, as he recognized that this is definitely an area where reasonable minds can differ)
    2. This is very clear and forthright and should be an enjoyable read that will provide some very usable insights.
    3. Very British (with the typical blind spot in otherwise clear thought for the provocative role British actions had in creating the conditions that he had spent a career dealing with. I find the same blind spot today in American perspectives on the challenges we face.)
    4. I expect it to be based more about "Knowledge" than "Understanding." To me, knowledge is interesting, but real value comes from understanding. I realize many get uncomfortable when stepping from the firm intellectual terrain of what one can measure, weigh, taste, feel, or see; but one must be able to follow the sign from the facts of what happened to the understanding of why it happened to be able to really apply the lessons appropriately when faced with a new factual situation. This is why I like Galula very much. And Jomini as well for that matter.

    So, this weekend, Brigadier Kitson and I will get to know each other a bit. I look forward to it.



    Bob, you may want to wait until you read the book....Kitson is Anti-Clausewitz and he Anti-Wilf (sorry Wilf but he contradicts much of what you say)! He understands the power of Subversion and Nonviolence in overthrowing a government. And to be successfully at COIN you must integrate counter propaganda,counter economic,counter insurgency - not separation of the them. Also Hailer publishing in St. Pete,Fl. has a Kitson reprint of LIC at reasonable price.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-09-2009 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Make penultimate sentence read better.

  8. #68
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for the response

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    As to CENTCOM, it is about 400 yards, and several light years from SOCOM; so I have never had reason to grace their doorstep with my presence. Silly, but there just isn't much cross-pollination.
    Having long and not terribly happy experience with CentCom and its predecessors there, I'll forego comment and just say you're wise.

    Asked the Library question out of idle curiousity; we -- DoD -- have so many that it would seem some consolidation might be effected. I understand the difference between school / command and MWR. Still...
    If you ever want to stop in, drop me a note and I will happily smuggle you through security and buy you lunch as well.
    Thanks. I'd like that. We've got some old friends down in Tampa and Clearwater we keep threatening to run down and see 'em so if I can ever get my wife cranked up, I'll drop you a PM.
    ...A 10-20 page exsum of CvC would be just about perfect, and would probably actually get read by those who need to read him.
    I can agree with that, too much wading for me.

    I'm excessively voluble on-line in an attempt to preclude angst, anger, ado and abashment but I can whip out a single paged tree sourced Exsum that'll knock your socks off (learned how to do that when I discovered the average GOs attention span... ). For CvC, I could do it but would need at least a 10 page attachment.

  9. #69
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Thanks, Slap

    Just ordered it. Read it years ago, need a refresher...

  10. #70
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Just ordered it. Read it years ago, need a refresher...
    I was reluctant to put it up here, I have been a long time fan of Kitson and much of SBW comes from there So now I cain't write my book on SBW and make a million dollars....and buy an island....and start my own country.....based on Beaches,Beer,Bikinis,and Bar-B-Que....oh well

    Kitson makes reference to this guy in his book. Here is free pdf file on Non-Violent means enjoy.
    http://www.patrir.ro/london/septembe...ne%20Sharp.pdf
    Last edited by slapout9; 08-09-2009 at 01:36 AM. Reason: add link

  11. #71
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default You can still make a mint form the SBW book

    but I know why you provided that last link. Forget it. I am not gonna arm rassle you over the water from the Chatahoochee!

  12. #72
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    Default Kitson at Hailer ....

    Here's the link for $19.99 - they take only Paypal. Since I just got back from a steak fry with my pool team, I'll not even try to write anything intelligent.

    Quite a number of interesting reprints in their catalog - e.g., One Hundred Eighty Landings of United States Marines 1800- 1934 by Captain Harry Alanson Ellsworth, USMC, pub. in 1934 - for $9.99 !

    Have to take a better look in the cold reality of tomorrow morning.

  13. #73
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    but I know why you provided that last link. Forget it. I am not gonna arm rassle you over the water from the Chatahoochee!
    That's OK Ken, looks like sooner or later we will have a small war with Georgia over it....bunch a Rednecks tryin to steal our water....I don't think so!

  14. #74
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Bob, you may want to wait until you read the book....Kitson is Anti-Clausewitz and he Anti-Wilf (sorry Wilf but he contradicts much of what you say)! He understands the power of Subversion and Nonviolence in overthrowing a government.
    So do I and so does Clausewitz. Non-violence sometimes works. Carl (and I) never said otherwise. Look at Ghandi. He just chose to put forth policy without violence. - BUT THAT IS NOT WAR! It is not the realm of military art. It is part of the policy which you have the option to use violence. - Subversion against your enemies is not done by armies. (CIA-SIS, The Office, etc.)
    Medieval Warfare frequently saw bribery used to get armies to change side and even go home.
    However, how many cases of pure subversion can we demonstrate that have not included some violent means?

    And to be successfully a COIN must integrate counter propaganda,counter economic,counter insurgency not separation of the them.
    Again, I have never said otherwise. COUNTER-propaganda is not necessarily woolly old "information ops". It is the countering of specific activity. -Rebuttal in media speak. Also, that it occurs does not mean it's decisive.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  15. #75
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    So do I and so does Clausewitz. Non-violence sometimes works. Carl (and I) never said otherwise. Look at Ghandi. He just chose to put forth policy without violence. - BUT THAT IS NOT WAR! It is not the realm of military art.
    We must have have read a different book, because Kitson certainly thought it was all of it is part of War, and he certainly thought it was part of the Military's responsibility.

  16. #76
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Kitson makes reference to this guy in his book. Here is free pdf file on Non-Violent means enjoy.
    http://www.patrir.ro/london/septembe...ne%20Sharp.pdf
    Kitson refers to Sharp as part of the Non-violent phase - precursor to the violent phase?

    This is pure CvC. "War = the support of a political agenda, using violence." That is NO way detracts from the effectiveness of politics without violence. Politics without violence is merely politics/diplomacy. It is not war or conflict.

    If you write about trying to change a political condition without using violence, you are writing about the use of politics. The fact that these acts may be illegal is irrelevant, as the legality is a political construct to begin with.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  17. #77
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    We must have have read a different book, because Kitson certainly thought it was all of it is part of War, and he certainly thought it was part of the Military's responsibility.
    Well I have the 1991 Faber re-print of the 1972 Edition, with a new introduction. I am pretty sure this is the last edition Kitson wrote personally - and while he was still serving.

    ....but, the British Army have almost always, operated in "Support of the Civil Power," in COIN/CRW etc. Yes, counter-subversion was part of the effort, but it was done by Special Branch, not the Army. The Army supported Special Branch. Kitson, to my mind, is merely laying out the "all instruments of power," - which is how we ruled the Empire.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  18. #78
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    ....but, the British Army have almost always, operated in "Support of the Civil Power," in COIN/CRW etc. Yes, counter-subversion was part of the effort, but it was done by Special Branch, not the Army. The Army supported Special Branch. Kitson, to my mind, is merely laying out the "all instruments of power," - which is how we ruled the Empire.
    That ain't what the book says. The whole point is for the Army to be prepared to do it because there may not be anyone else who can or will do it. He lays it out in every chapter exactly what he believes the Army should do.

  19. #79
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Link to book review of Low Intensity Conflict by Frank Kitson


    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/054.html

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    That ain't what the book says. The whole point is for the Army to be prepared to do it because there may not be anyone else who can or will do it. He lays it out in every chapter exactly what he believes the Army should do.
    Does your edition include the diagram of the committee system, Figure 2, Chapter 3? - The PIO, for example, is almost certainly special branch.
    I'd also refer you to the last paragraph of Chapter 5. "In conclusion..." Yes he states Army officers should be able to advise and assist, but in the non-violent phase, the Army are supporting the Police - Northern Ireland saw some 28+ years of "policy Primacy."

    In fact the more I read and re-read Kitson, Paget, and even Samay Ram (Indian Army's Kitson) the more I believe the "80% political, 20% military" is merely a re-statement of Clausewitian observation.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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