The gas was used to prevent detonation of explosives carried by "Black Widows" (Chechen version of female suicide bombers). The gas wasn't to kill, but to incapitate them give some time to operators. All hostages were alive when the building was seized by SF. They started dying when they were transported to the hospitals. All medical support totally failed - not the CT operation.
Couple of points. It was not a gas. It was a powerful narcotic used in medicine as an anesthesia delivered in an aerosol form to increase the rapid reaction in order to incapacitate the terrorist. Robal2pl is dead on when he said It was the medical personnel. By not having enough medication on hand to bring them back once they had been put under. If the medical personnel had done this it would have ended up as one of the best mass HRT's ever done.
Below is a link that discusses this operation along with others of this kind.
"Offensive use of chemical technologies by US Special Operations in GWOT"
http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/aupress/.../Text/mp37.pdf
Ok, i got Your point.
But this situation was more complicated that this what can be found in some scources, including the one you mention.
On the auditorium, when suicide bombers were located, assault teams were shooting them in heads. More, there were some places where aerosol did not reach (couple of hostages tried to escape on their own)
But on the other places in the buliding (higher ones - narcotic was appiled only in lower ones) there was a series of heavy gunfights, even MGs and genade launchers were used.
There is a couple of others elements - like planning and executing entire operation almost without radio communictaions (all channels and frequencies were jammed to prevent remote detonation of explosives)
So form the tactical point of viev, it was one of the best HR operations.
Russians spent a lot of time, after crisises in Budionnovsk and Piervomaiskoie, preparing for such scenario.
Had there been field hospital deployed,and evacuation routes to other hospitals cleadred, there would be many less killed.
I am sorry for the delay here.
Now, when I stop laughing on this outrages comment, I will be “rude” and ask you to read something that’s is NOT written by official Russian military or police-or they cronies-before claiming things like this and responding to my post with facts!
Example -that document that I posted here…
Also (my thanks to slapout9 for posting this document) you can read that where on page 15 is stated:
But Robal2pl say on this:“The Moscow public health department announced that many of the hostages suffocated as a direct result of the fentanyl. Of the 128 hostages reported killed, only ONE was shot by the terrorists—the others died due to the effects of the aerosol.”What!?“So form the tactical point of viev, it was one of the best HR operations.”
Again:
So, when Robal2pl and slapout9 claim that is medical personnel fault that hostages died, one need to say that is NOT true! Especially when one know that paramedics was stopped by police on the way to the theater for 10-15min (stated in document I posted).“Doctors at the hospitals were never informed of the chemical agent used and could not properly diagnose any of the victims.”
Idea to blame help, which was not informed and also delayed, instead of those who actually pump aerosol agent is at least irresponsible.
My point of how BAD and irresponsible Russian forces are and how low concern do they have for they own civilians is again confirmed on page 16 of that report where is said:
Simply put, it was Russian Al’fa vendetta against Chechen fighters and CIVILIANS paid price.“Irregardless of the large numbers of hostages involved in this situation, FSB Al’fa’s intent of using a nonlethal agent was LESS focused on their rescue and more so on killing the Chechen terrorists.
This vendetta stemmed from past encounters when Chechen fighters defeated the elite unit in hostage-taking scenarios…”
Again…“Urine and blood samples from several of the German hostages examined by a German toxicology professor showed an EXTREMELY high concentration of anesthetics.
Loss of consciousness from fentanyl occurs at the lowest effective dose—for 50 percent of a given population, around .011 milligram (mg) per kilogram (kg) of body weight.
The lethal dose of fentanyl for 50 percent of a given population occurs at 3.1 mg per kg of body weight.
Although there are no facts available showing how much fentanyl was used
in the raid, it is safe to assume that a high concentration was required to effectively render everyone unconscious.
Additionally, the FSB Al’fa had no prior training in administering calmative agents in this type of environment, implying that hostage safety was NOT a high priority.
…effects of using this unconventional method (fentanyl) killed 50 times more of FSB Al’fa’s own people than did the hostage takers.”
IF Russians didn’t use leather dose of that agent MANY civilians would live.
IF Russians wanted to secure hostages safety they will drag negotiations and be concentrated on RELEASE of hostages instead of killing Chechens.
Yes… “Great” tactical decision and “the best” HR operations.
Almost “good” like using tanks and artillery in hostage rescue operation in Pervomaiskaya, when even hostages start running away with they Chechen captures AWAY from Russian “liberators” and they artillery fire. Same with Budyonnovsk.
IF you read document I posted here you will find way different (official) picture that you seam to have. This report coming from Russian sources and people PERSONALLY involved in crisis and they you will see how much you are wrong…
They you can read that NO hostages were shoot and NO one tried to escape prior to attack (like you just say)!
Russian authorities LIED in Theater siege. They lied in Beslan to. And that was my whole point… They lied and they were to blame for ALL butchered rescue. But, why to listen me!? Just read commission reports from Moscow and Beslan and listen Russian people accusing Russian government, police and army.
Also I advice you to read interviews with Chechen commanders posted here and learn more about what happened in Pervomaiskaya and Budyonnovsk.
Hi Sarajevo, I had a problem downloading the document you posted yesterday so I did not read it. My fault completely. I have now downloaded and printed out a copy. I will read it and respond later.
There is one matter : we seem to talk about two things.
The assault itself is one matter - do some research on hostage situations and you'll see how difficult Nod-Ost was. Show me another operations where 417 operators magaged to prevent blowing entire building up and killing hostages (Chenens planned to execute hostages - that's the way the decision was made).
The lack of medical support is other problem, we all know that it was done wrong.
If You and others say that Russian wanted simply "kill'em all" - they colud do this at once when they arrived.
Piervomayskaya and Budionnovsk. There wasn't even CT operations - simply, there was a total chaos with generals from all branches, MPs, goverment officials and finally Alpha and Vitizaz wich commanders' arguments noone wanted to listen...Of course media after in course and after those events were full of "experts" who blamed Spetsnaz - maube because it sounds good in TV...and it couldn't harm one politican or another
Alpha's vendetta...sorry but I don't buy it. Simply.
Authorites lied (Cynic would add - wich one never lie?) but, simply to be fair one cannot tell simply "all was wrong, and thay's all".
But… Seams to me you still didn’t read that Doc. Please do. They are saying things there about explosives and real intentions of hostage takers.Originally Posted by Robal2pl
Like you can see, I am avoiding to say my own opinion (it just my opinion and everyone have one) but rather using they (people who was there) words.
I mention Pervomaiskaya and Budyonnovsk like another example of careless Russian attitude toward they own civilians… I can find you more examples from war in Grozny.
I don’t intend to change your opinion about Russians. Just wanted to give you answer why I am thinking this way. I have my answers, proofs and I believe that they are truthful.
That’s all.
cheers
Np. Slapout9.
Just another look on same theme but from non-official side and some better details, I believe.
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