Originally Posted by Kiwigrunt
Its difficult.... I can discuss it rationally now.... but make me 19 again, give me a gun, grenades and an attitude... and a section of other young guys all trying to prove they are harder than the next guy..... and its a different ball game.
Change in Metrics of success
COIN has changed how we define success on the "battelfield" yet the award system (and by extension the promotion system) has not changed. In Khost Province last year we had a CSM flying out to Sabari District to measure sideburns (!!). This was a "combat tested" CSM.
On the enlisted level, the NCO ranks still does not get leadership credit for MiTT or ETT (SQD LRD/PLT SGT/1SG).
Success needs to be rewarded. If not, then COIN knowledge will be lost just like it was lost after Vietnam (late '70s/80/90)
Are you suggesting that it should? If so, why?
Welcome to the Army.
Is the suggestion here that awards are the only reward? Or the most preferable award? Something else? We generally reward success with evaluations reports, promotions, and desirable duty positions and stations. Even if we get rewards right, knowledge can still be lost.
If 4-Star Generals and Brigade Col. are asking SGTs and SSGs to wage a redefined type of combat then yes I think they should be rewarded.Are you suggesting that it should? If so, why?
Welcome to the Army.
Is the suggestion here that awards are the only reward? Or the most preferable award? Something else? We generally reward success with evaluations reports, promotions, and desirable duty positions and stations. Even if we get rewards right, knowledge can still be lost.
At the same time we were in Khowst Province, two different SF CSMs were in the AO. We did not get a single report of them measuring sideburns. Of course they did Robin Sage and are trained in FID.
The suggestion here is not that awards are the only reward. I present the opinion that senior leaders are training one way and asking soldiers to perform another way in combat. When those same soldiers do well in combat ("well" defined as successfully operating out of 3-24) we then ask the same soldiers to go back to being an MP or 11B or Gun Bunny.
As I understand it, the argument is conduct COIN but maintain traditional, "stay in your lane" MOS specific skills. My argument is MOS specific skills are a baseline and "joint" training now starts at the E5 level and not at the 04 level.
Think combat leadership is being rewarded? Walk around Crystal City and count the lack of combat patches.
It's been over a month, so maybe I need to refresh my memory, but I'm not sure I understand what you are arguing. As I understand it, you assert that we're fighting a "redefined type of combat," whatever that is, and this, I guess, justifies some kind of award?
After that, you completely lost me with the random comments about sideburns, Robin Sage, vague assertion about "senior leaders are training one way and asking soldiers to perform another way," some apparent gulf in skills required by COIN and other ops, and combat patches in Crystal City.
Let me use this analogy, while in a combat zone, as an NCO, I tell a PFC that he has to man a Browning .50cal.you assert that we're fighting a "redefined type of combat," whatever that is, and this, I guess, justifies some kind of award?
We all know this is not a new weapon system. It has been in the US Army inventory for almost 90yrs. But to the new PFC it is a new weapon.
If, as an NCO, I toss the FM at the PFC and say "learn it, oh and tell me what you learned" then the PFC deserves a reward.
There is a major flaw in my argument. With COIN, prior to 3-24 the PFC did not even have an FM.
Okay, so I guess if someone learns something on their own, then they deserve a reward. I further infer that you believe Soldiers are learning things on their own without significant assistance or training from their superiors. Apparently one of those things is COIN, a collective endeavor performed by units, which I guess we're to believe is spontaneously performed without guidance or direction from leaders, or something. And then, this justifies a reward for restraint, or something?
Forgive me if I stop responding.
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