Courageous Restraint "Hold fire, earn a medal"

[Seabee]

IMHO it would take a brave man to wear such a medal.

Lets be honest, there is a macho thing that would make someone like that an outcast.

2 short anecdotes come to mind.

1) The week before my unit went into iraq in Desrt Storm my platoon did a mock attack on an abandoned Saudi Border post. As we were approaching the door opened and a bootless scarecrow came up with his hands up... never has a platoon locked and loaded so fast... never has an LT run forward and stopped 40 men doing something silly so fast... 5 months of sand made everyone prety eager to get a shot in.... The LT was seen as a Wus.

2) When an operation in Africa finished so fast almost noone got to fire a shot... the devil makes work for idle hands... all over the town we were in guys were hatching plots on how they could instigate a fight

3) Once in Sarajevo 2 of our APCs were fired on from an apartment block. The 20mm AA Gunner was told by his sgt to fire at the building... he refused as there were probably/possibly women and kids in it. (I am not even sure the sgt was authorised to give the order). Was only light weapons fire anyway, just bounced off. The gunner became a pariah, not for disobeying orders or anything, simply because he gave up a chance to shoot in a city where everyone was hoping and praying that today would be their day to shoot.

Yup... with age and hindsight the LT did the right thing (was an iraqi deserter who had spend 3 days walking to get there, the guys looking to start a firefight were wrong, and the gunner did the right thing.....

back when I was 23 I saw it very different... yup indeed.....

[Kiwigrunt]

IMHO it would take a brave man to wear such a medal.

Lets be honest, there is a macho thing that would make someone like that an outcast......

So maybe it is more about the actual conversation that about the medal. Lets hope that the conversation educates people enough to avoid this sort of silliness from being as common place in the future as it was in the past. How else so we cut through the macho crap?

[Seabee]

How else so we cut through the macho crap?

Its difficult.... I can discuss it rationally now.... but make me 19 again, give me a gun, grenades and an attitude... and a section of other young guys all trying to prove they are harder than the next guy..... and its a different ball game.

[Ranger94]

COIN has changed how we define success on the "battelfield" yet the award system (and by extension the promotion system) has not changed. In Khost Province last year we had a CSM flying out to Sabari District to measure sideburns (!!). This was a "combat tested" CSM.

On the enlisted level, the NCO ranks still does not get leadership credit for MiTT or ETT (SQD LRD/PLT SGT/1SG).

Success needs to be rewarded. If not, then COIN knowledge will be lost just like it was lost after Vietnam (late '70s/80/90)

[Schmedlap]

COIN has changed how we define success on the "battelfield" yet the award system (and by extension the promotion system) has not changed.

Are you suggesting that it should? If so, why?

In Khost Province last year we had a CSM flying out to Sabari District to measure sideburns (!!). This was a "combat tested" CSM.

Welcome to the Army.

Success needs to be rewarded. If not, then COIN knowledge will be lost just like it was lost after Vietnam (late '70s/80/90)

Is the suggestion here that awards are the only reward? Or the most preferable award? Something else? We generally reward success with evaluations reports, promotions, and desirable duty positions and stations. Even if we get rewards right, knowledge can still be lost.

[Ranger94]

Are you suggesting that it should? If so, why?


Welcome to the Army.


Is the suggestion here that awards are the only reward? Or the most preferable award? Something else? We generally reward success with evaluations reports, promotions, and desirable duty positions and stations. Even if we get rewards right, knowledge can still be lost.

If 4-Star Generals and Brigade Col. are asking SGTs and SSGs to wage a redefined type of combat then yes I think they should be rewarded.

At the same time we were in Khowst Province, two different SF CSMs were in the AO. We did not get a single report of them measuring sideburns. Of course they did Robin Sage and are trained in FID.

The suggestion here is not that awards are the only reward. I present the opinion that senior leaders are training one way and asking soldiers to perform another way in combat. When those same soldiers do well in combat ("well" defined as successfully operating out of 3-24) we then ask the same soldiers to go back to being an MP or 11B or Gun Bunny.

As I understand it, the argument is conduct COIN but maintain traditional, "stay in your lane" MOS specific skills. My argument is MOS specific skills are a baseline and "joint" training now starts at the E5 level and not at the 04 level.

Think combat leadership is being rewarded? Walk around Crystal City and count the lack of combat patches.

[Schmedlap]

It's been over a month, so maybe I need to refresh my memory, but I'm not sure I understand what you are arguing. As I understand it, you assert that we're fighting a "redefined type of combat," whatever that is, and this, I guess, justifies some kind of award?

After that, you completely lost me with the random comments about sideburns, Robin Sage, vague assertion about "senior leaders are training one way and asking soldiers to perform another way," some apparent gulf in skills required by COIN and other ops, and combat patches in Crystal City.