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Thread: Operationalizing The Jones Model through COG

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    That tendency is evident in our preference for central government, and in our assumption that effective governance is a desirable thing. In many cases it may not be. If a group of people is accustomed to governing themselves, with nominal allegiance to a distant and abstract national entity, the prospect of an effective government - of a government that actually proposes to govern them - might be regarded as a direct assault on a treasured autonomy. We might see a police force and a courthouse as "delivering justice", the populace might see it as an attempt to impose a foreign system of justice.
    Not all that unlike the brand of ultra-survivalists and anti-taxation folk in our own country, if you stop and think about it. Deep inside, a large cross-section of the population empathize with them. Maybe not so strongly as to provide aid and comfort in the wake of an attack against one of our institutions, but there is fertile ground that can be worked with a hoe if governance and its institutions are already weak or corrupt.

    I suspect that the key question in Afghanistan is how the populace perceives the conflict: is the core conflict between the GIROA and the Taliban, with the foreigners intervening in support of the GIROA, or is the core conflict between the foreigners and the Taliban, with the foreigners setting up the GIROA as a local agent of their own devising? If the former, then yes, this is insurgency and we're doing FID. If the latter, then it is war, regardless of how badly we'd like to call it something else.
    I don't see, after 9 years at this effort, where we are any closer to understanding the dynamic.

    The common insurgent weakness revolves around the relationship between insurgent leaders and their followers, both the rank-and-file fighters and the supporting populace. It's not universal, but where it exists it provides a key strategic target. If we look at "the insurgency" as a monolithic entity driven solely by resistance to bad governance, we can overlook this vulnerability.

    Insurgent leaders are typically ideologically driven, and fighting for a particular desired end state, generally one in which they take political power. Insurgent followers are more typically driven by local issues that threaten them: they fight against an unacceptable status quo. The ideology of the leader is frequently less that significant (and often less than comprehensible) to the follower. The key to success for the insurgent leadership is in understanding those local grievances (which will vary widely from one locale to the next) and in presenting themselves as a solution or as an ally.

    That dynamic presents an interesting challenge. The leadership may be diffuse and difficult to target; even when some of them are killed or captured new leaders emerge from the ideological core. If we target the followers, we end up punishing people who see themselves fighting for their own rights or their own survival, often exacerbating the issues that the core insurgent propagandists exploit. For me, the key to resolving a situation like this is to understand the core narrative of the followers in any given locale, identify the divergences between the narratives of leader and follower, and act to address the issues that motivate the followers. The idea is to drive a wedge between leader and follower, less a question of decapitation than disembodiment. We will never persuade the core ideologues, but if we can isolate them from their followers we can render them irrelevant.
    Great observations that play into my own struggle to define area denial. Reading your points brings home the fact that despite all the collections assets we have at our disposal, that harness military manpower, very few of them (at least that I can tell) are focused on identifying the root causes of why knuckleheads do what they do, and spend inordinant amounts of time and resources simply showing us the sypmtoms. I can't tell you how many times I have read reporting that does a great job making connections within the realm of Slap's four F's, and details what has or is about to happen, but simply canno fathom the reason why. It seems that assessment is often reserved for the human terrain folks, and that presents an inverse proportion of effort.

    Perhaps that's because it will always be easier to be the counterinsurgent than to actually resolve the insurgency across the spectrum.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Perhaps that's because it will always be easier to be the counterinsurgent than to actually resolve the insurgency across the spectrum.
    Correct, but so what? It is not "your' job to solve the problem. "Your" is to break their armed force, using armed force.

    "You" apply military force, which kills and destroys and so deters as a result of doing so, or intending so.
    The military contribution to crushing a revolt is to kill and capture the "revolting." - that's it! Military force can only destroy or deter.

    ALL ELSE is done by politics and diplomacy - with only the alternative to kill and capture, if the rebels act out again.

    Killing and capturing rebels requires skill. It does not create more rebels. This is fallacy, though it can and might, it is not a given, and this is not a reason not to do it.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Correct, but so what? It is not "your' job to solve the problem. "Your" is to break their armed force, using armed force.

    "You" apply military force, which kills and destroys and so deters as a result of doing so, or intending so.
    The military contribution to crushing a revolt is to kill and capture the "revolting." - that's it! Military force can only destroy or deter.

    ALL ELSE is done by politics and diplomacy - with only the alternative to kill and capture, if the rebels act out again.

    Killing and capturing rebels requires skill. It does not create more rebels. This is fallacy, though it can and might, it is not a given, and this is not a reason not to do it.
    I'm sorry Wilf, but once again, your black and white lens shows you are divorced from really understanding what I do, and what we all (military) are doing over here. The only ones getting to what you describe are the special ops guys.

    You are describing the objective, not the actual threshold of what is actually happening. Diplomacy, as well as politics, are practised by the .mil folks every day.

    That's the so what.
    Last edited by jcustis; 05-24-2010 at 10:49 AM.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I'm sorry Wilf, but once again, your black and white lens shows you are divorced from really understanding what I do, and what we all (military) are doing over here. The only ones getting to what you describe are the special ops guys.
    You are missing my point. I am well aware of what "the Military" is trying to do.
    I am well aware that the military is having to pick up the slack for other agencies failings and strategic dissonance.
    I am merely stating the truism that if you apply military forces to problems that are not military in nature, then you will rarely get the outcome by the route you desire.
    There are real limits to military power as a solution to non-military problems.
    Thinking about the "problem in a different way," doesn't change that, unless someone wants to make all the same mistakes, all over again.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    You are missing my point. I am well aware of what "the Military" is trying to do.
    I am well aware that the military is having to pick up the slack for other agencies failings and strategic dissonance.
    I am merely stating the truism that if you apply military forces to problems that are not military in nature, then you will rarely get the outcome by the route you desire.
    There are real limits to military power as a solution to non-military problems.
    Thinking about the "problem in a different way," doesn't change that, unless someone wants to make all the same mistakes, all over again.
    I missed your point then, frankly, because you came across as talking down to me with regard to the point you were trying to make. Had you simply said what you wrote above, then I would have understood and moved on. Instead, you came across to me as that guy waving his arms and yelling, "why won't you fools listen to me?" That happens pretty often around your posts (at least for me), so if I snapped at a misunderstanding, my apologies.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Instead, you came across to me as that guy waving his arms and yelling, "why won't you fools listen to me?" That happens pretty often around your posts (at least for me), so if I snapped at a misunderstanding, my apologies.
    Well in which case I owe you an equal apology if I came across like that. Not my intent.
    - more over, if I come across as someone saying "listen to me" then I am equally screwed, - as what I am trying to say is "read CvC, Thucydides, and few others. They've said it all before".
    I don't do original ideas. I just want to understand the ones that exist!
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Well in which case I owe you an equal apology if I came across like that. Not my intent.
    - more over, if I come across as someone saying "listen to me" then I am equally screwed, - as what I am trying to say is "read CvC, Thucydides, and few others. They've said it all before".
    I don't do original ideas. I just want to understand the ones that exist!
    Good thing that "CvC, Thucydides, and a few others" didn't share that inclination!

    All "Ideas" are by definition "new" at least to the person having them. Few things are truly new of course.

    I've never been comfortable with the concept of simply hitting something with a hammer because that is "how its done" and if it doesn't work, just get a bigger hammer. Sometimes I think you need to reach for a different tool; or perhaps the thing you're whacking away at isn't even the problem at all upon a more careful analysis.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I can't tell you how many times I have read reporting that does a great job making connections within the realm of Slap's four F's, and details what has or is about to happen, but simply canno fathom the reason why. It seems that assessment is often reserved for the human terrain folks, and that presents an inverse proportion of effort.
    JC, that is why I say Motive, Method, and Opportunity should replace Ends, Ways and Means. CvC even talks about always going back to the Original Motive for the war! But here is what I think is the flaw in Wilf's argument, nobody ever ask soldiers/police officers how to prevent crime/war and if by some slim chance they do Politicos don't like the answers they get. Here is where I think Wilf is right......It's all politics.....politics causes war and crime. And that is the value in the Jones model....if it wakes some people up and gets them to pay attention to what the root cause/problem is....then that is a good governance thing. The fact that a soldier produces it or recommends it shouldn't really concern people IMO.

    Plus, Wilf is really a nice guy he just can't stand it because that dead German guy had no since of humor whatsoever. Keep your head down.

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