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Thread: Point/Counterpoint: Are the Service Academies in Trouble?

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  1. #1
    Council Member Hacksaw's Avatar
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    Default In re re: Mike F

    Quote Originally Posted by Hacksaw View Post
    Lets see class of 2000, Rugby Player... Must know Nick B... I was his sponsor... small world
    Long Live Sosh...

    On a more serious note... I think our department in particular tried to make our curriculum as relevant as possible (might have been easier given the nature of AP/IR/ECON...

    Personally I added a constraints based MGMT/ACCT culminating event to my course in order to get cadets to think about/apply the principles of MR/MC and how a balanced system is one of the least efficient of all (counter-intuitive to most) when you dependent events and random variation - which is at the core of just about every military problem. A former student, IN FLT LDR in 3-101... came up to me at the weigh-house while we were deploying to Iraq and finds me and says, "I get it... this is the Herbie (chokepoint), that's why you're here isn't it"... probably the best confirmation I got out of my time spent at USMA...

    As a side note, when tasked with writing the plan for the Reconstruction & Stabilization of Northern Iraq (MAR -APR 2003)... I staffed the plan with SOSH (COL Meese - my mentor as well)... the point being that all the components that I wanted a read on resided in those floors in Lincoln Hall... While I might resemble the 2nd rate faculty comment, my contemporaries did not... and well to be brutally honest, I'd challenge just about any junior faculty member at an IVY league school to build the plan that we put together back then...

    Humani Nihil Alienum
    Hacksaw
    Say hello to my 2 x 4

  2. #2
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    Default Hacksaw

    I agree. I sort of had 2 points - the first was that the competitive nature of the student body at the academies is a strong point. Cadets and Midshipmen may not all be as acadeically qualified as their Ivy League counterparts but many of them give those guys and gals a run for their money. They also,as a group, tend to be better rounded. Comapred to ROTC grads, it's a mixed bag (BTW I was an Ivy League ROTC puke myself). It is, I think along with OU Pres David Boren, the quality of undergrad students sets the quality of the institution far more than grad students or faculty. My second point was that the faculty I know (mostly sosh and dormer sosh as well as history) have been as good or better than any I've seen in universities. I would add that our fellow contributor Gian Gentile is nowat USMA challenging cadets and faculty alike.

    Cheers

    JohnT

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    Default

    Each commissioning source makes unique contributions to the officer corps as a whole. I would submit that we would be weaker without every one of them and the resulting blend of competencies.

  4. #4
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Honor Code

    Hacksaw makes some strong points about the academics. I'll offer one serious post on the honor code.

    The cadet honor code is very strict- all black and white. For instance, if a cadet has his roommate help him with homework and he fails to footnote the help, then he is cheating.

    I only served on one honor board (jury not the defendant ). It was about four months before we graduated. The defendant was ranked third or fourth academically out of our class. He was one of the super over-achievers. He was accused of copying his roommate's work for one minor project. He was found guilty and kicked out of school.

    That's the standard the we had to uphold at school. Integrity, honor, and duty remain on the forefront of a graduate's mind. Now, transitioning that into the real world of gray can take some time, but that's why God made NCO's.

    Mike

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Default No dog in this fight

    Can someone explain to me what is actually good about the system in places like West Point? - I mean good in an objective sense.

    From an outsider view point it is not entirely clear how or if any of this produces better combat commanders. It certainly seems to take a vast amount of time and cost, for what seems not an obvious advantage.

    As I say, just curious. From what I seen and read they seem far more rule-based, rigid, and absolutist than the anything the British or even German Armies had in their hay day!
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    From an outsider view point it is not entirely clear how or if any of this produces better combat commanders. It certainly seems to take a vast amount of time and cost, for what seems not an obvious advantage.

    As I say, just curious. From what I seen and read they seem far more rule-based, rigid, and absolutist than the anything the British or even German Armies had in their hay day!
    Depends upon who the outsider is. I went to a private military school. We looked upon the academies in much the same way that Soldiers in a patrol base look at the FOB.

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    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    Depends upon who the outsider is. I went to a private military school. We looked upon the academies in much the same way that Soldiers in a patrol base look at the FOB.
    The service academies have Burger King and Rip-Its?
    “Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.”

    Terry Pratchett

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