Point/Counterpoint: Are the Service Academies in Trouble?

[MikeF]

Hacksaw makes some strong points about the academics. I'll offer one serious post on the honor code.

The cadet honor code is very strict- all black and white. For instance, if a cadet has his roommate help him with homework and he fails to footnote the help, then he is cheating.

I only served on one honor board (jury not the defendant ). It was about four months before we graduated. The defendant was ranked third or fourth academically out of our class. He was one of the super over-achievers. He was accused of copying his roommate's work for one minor project. He was found guilty and kicked out of school.

That's the standard the we had to uphold at school. Integrity, honor, and duty remain on the forefront of a graduate's mind. Now, transitioning that into the real world of gray can take some time, but that's why God made NCO's.

Mike

[William F. Owen]

Can someone explain to me what is actually good about the system in places like West Point? - I mean good in an objective sense.

From an outsider view point it is not entirely clear how or if any of this produces better combat commanders. It certainly seems to take a vast amount of time and cost, for what seems not an obvious advantage.

As I say, just curious. From what I seen and read they seem far more rule-based, rigid, and absolutist than the anything the British or even German Armies had in their hay day!

[Schmedlap]

From an outsider view point it is not entirely clear how or if any of this produces better combat commanders. It certainly seems to take a vast amount of time and cost, for what seems not an obvious advantage.

As I say, just curious. From what I seen and read they seem far more rule-based, rigid, and absolutist than the anything the British or even German Armies had in their hay day!

Depends upon who the outsider is. I went to a private military school. We looked upon the academies in much the same way that Soldiers in a patrol base look at the FOB.

[Uboat509]

Depends upon who the outsider is. I went to a private military school. We looked upon the academies in much the same way that Soldiers in a patrol base look at the FOB.

The service academies have Burger King and Rip-Its?

[Schmedlap]

The service academies have Burger King and Rip-Its?

Well, kind of. During my freshman year I considered transferring to West Point, but it seemed over the top to me. Their chow hall made ours look like a soup kitchen. Their athletic facilities/gym/etc made ours look like a small town high school. Their barracks rooms made ours look like a homeless shelter. In hindsight, perhaps my school was more austere than necessary. But, being a 19-year-old who had willingly been brainwashed by Drill Instructors and a handful of grizzled Vietnam War vets who worked at my school, I thought that anything was too soft if it didn't involve crawling through mud and broken glass.

[MikeF]

During my freshman year I considered transferring to West Point, but it seemed over the top to me.

Why is the Junior Varsity always so damn jealous of the Varsity team ?

Did you have to walk uphill both ways to class too? Sounds like you went to school in a northwestern mountainous part of a state where they dig banjos, sleeping with cousins, and the legal age for marraige is 16.

[John T. Fishel]

Wilf, it's hey day - just kidding. You have a serious question there. Back in 1802 when WP was founded it was THE engineering school in the US. For 50 years +/- it has been a highly selective undergraduate university that produces a significant minority of army officers. Generally, those officers collectively are promoted at a higher rate than their peers from other commissioning sources making up about half the generals the army promotes. Historically, the leaders on both sides of the Am Civil War were from WP. The leaders of the US army in WWII were mostly from WP and many key leaders were from the WP class of 1915. One exception was G. C. Marshall who graduated from VMI.
The modern US military requires all its officers to have an undergraduate degree. Some National Guard officers can still be commissioned without it but they can't be promoted with Federal recognition until they have a degree. So, the question is how WP stacks up against other universities. Academically (based on selection test scores - the SAT) WP is not as good as Harvard or other Ivy League schools but it is near the top of the second tier and better than most state universities and a lot of private ones. It is also more selective in looking for leadership skills, some athletic ability and other attributes that are deemed desirable in a military leader.
While a majority of Academy grads leave service after their obligation is over, many of those made mistakes as LTs that other LTs receive forgiveness for. Many of those who leave active service do stay in the reserve or National Guard and tend to do very well assuming real leadership positions. And many assume leadership roles in civilian life.
So, the bottom line is that WP and the other service academies serve the nation in many ways and provide more than their fair share of leaders both military and civilian. Is it the best way? the most efficient way? Who knows. It is consistent with American culture and does produce some of our best combat leaders (also some not so good).
Don't know if that answers your question. But also think about some of the folk who contribute to this forum. Some of the most thoughtful - more than what we have any reason to expect - are academy grads.
(Not me, of course!)

Cheers

JohnT

[slapout9]

Why is the Junior Varsity always so damn jealous of the Varsity team ?

Did you have to walk uphill both ways to class too? Sounds like you went to school in a northwestern mountainous part of a state where they dig banjos, sleeping with cousins, and the legal age for marraige is 16.

It's 14 not 16