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Thread: Point/Counterpoint: Are the Service Academies in Trouble?

  1. #41
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    John T. Fischel - many thanks for that.

    I have to say I have pretty utilitarian views of Officer training.
    The Royal Marines train their own officers, with none of the Sandhurst type performance and produce a pretty high standard. They also do it at minute cost compared to others. Their system fails badly in terms of Command Experience, because they produce too many officers, but raw product is generally good.
    The IDF produce generally very competent officers, with a great deal of command experience, if you get slated for the Command stream. I know one guys who has commanded 3 Battalions and 2 Brigades - all for 3 years!
    All Majors are now expected to go and get a Masters Degree - why I do not know!
    The German Army of the 1930's - 50's 60' and into the 1980's produced above average combat officers, by the accounts of the men who have studied them.

    My point, and nothing to do with US Service Academies, is that there is a good body of evidence that says you can produce very good officers without too much cost, time or process. Surely that is the requirement?
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  2. #42
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    Why is the Junior Varsity always so damn jealous of the Varsity team ?

    Did you have to walk uphill both ways to class too? Sounds like you went to school in a northwestern mountainous part of a state where they dig banjos, sleeping with cousins, and the legal age for marraige is 16.
    It's 14 not 16

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    Default Wilf, you are right

    that you can produce good officers by other systems. there is much to be said in favor of the IDF's every officer has previously served in the ranks approach.
    The American system as I suggested is driven by history and culture and its multiple commissioniing sources produces good officers for a very large military as OE and I argued. Most of the criticism I heard in the 70s and 80s was that our advanced officer education - CGSC (now ILE) and war college was of the MacDonalds variety. However, it looks a lot like its civilian counterpart Masters programs.

    Cheers

    JohnT

  4. #44
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default When did they raise it?

    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    It's 14 not 16
    Durn, I am sure missing a lotta changes...

  5. #45
    Council Member Infanteer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    John T. Fischel - many thanks for that.

    I have to say I have pretty utilitarian views of Officer training.
    The Royal Marines train their own officers, with none of the Sandhurst type performance and produce a pretty high standard. They also do it at minute cost compared to others. Their system fails badly in terms of Command Experience, because they produce too many officers, but raw product is generally good.
    The IDF produce generally very competent officers, with a great deal of command experience, if you get slated for the Command stream. I know one guys who has commanded 3 Battalions and 2 Brigades - all for 3 years!
    All Majors are now expected to go and get a Masters Degree - why I do not know!
    The German Army of the 1930's - 50's 60' and into the 1980's produced above average combat officers, by the accounts of the men who have studied them.

    My point, and nothing to do with US Service Academies, is that there is a good body of evidence that says you can produce very good officers without too much cost, time or process. Surely that is the requirement?
    There are obviously two factors here with an officer's development:
    1. Professional Development - Professional knowledge base, critical thought; and
    2. Technical Development - Fieldcraft, Command, Troop leading SOPs/TTPs.

    Is one more important then the other? Can the first factor be "pushed off" or "spread out"?

    Wilf speaks to lack of command time and too many officers - something we're seeing in Canada as the recruiting system opened up to try and fill a gap in the Senior Captain/Major rank levels (a gap that comes, in large part, from a creation of a plethora of new strategic-level HQs). Problem is too many officers for too little command billets.

    I'd venture that a hard cap, based off available commands at each rank level, should be put on the size of a Corps to avoid creating a bunch of commissioned bureaucrats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infanteer View Post
    I'd venture that a hard cap, based off available commands at each rank level, should be put on the size of a Corps to avoid creating a bunch of commissioned bureaucrats.
    If the US Army had done that, a lot more of us would have stayed in.

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    Council Member Infanteer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    If the US Army had done that, a lot more of us would have stayed in.
    We are seeing this up here, where many officers can expect, at most, 6 months of Command time for their entire career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    that you can produce good officers by other systems. there is much to be said in favor of the IDF's every officer has previously served in the ranks approach.
    Served in the ranks for how long and doing what?

  9. #49
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Served in the ranks for how long and doing what?
    Depends on the unit, and branch. Reuven Gal's "Portrait of an Israeli Soldier" describes the whole process in detail. - (and book recommended to me by General Sir John Kiszely)

    Essentially, you have to pass out of basic training with a good score, be selected to do the JNCO course, and the best of those go on to be officers, while having served as JNCOs in the unit, to the satisfaction of the Commanding officer. It's very much about character, and ability.

    The current COS, Gabi Askenazi comes from an very impoverished and disadvantaged back ground. It is said, his introduction to combat and vigilance, was guarding the family's one chicken! Maybe an apocryphal story.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  10. #50
    Council Member Red Rat's Avatar
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    Default Royal Military Academy Sandhurst

    Just for information I have copied below the Training Objectives (TO) for the Commissioning Course at Sandhurst. Sandhurst remains different from other military academies in that it is a one year course focused on producing leaders to fill platoon command slots; it is not academically orientated.

    TO1 Demonstrate combat fitness
    TO2 Handle and fire platoon weapon systems
    TO3 Navigate across country
    TO4 Apply battlefield first aid
    TO5 Carry out basic fieldcraft
    TO6 Operate in a CBRN environment (Chem, bio and nuclear)
    TO7 Officership Ethics, integrity, values and standards
    TO8 Command
    TO9 Perform Military Duties (including drill)
    TO10 Communicate Effectively
    TO11 Spare
    TO12 Lead Individual and Team Training (adventure training, cadet platoon projects, sports et al)
    TO13 Spare
    TO14 Operate IT/IM Equipment
    TO15 Lead a Platoon
    TO16 Operate Tactical Communications Systems
    TO17 Apply knowledge of Tactics
    TO18 Analyse British Military Doctrine
    TO19 Analyse Military performance in Current Conflicts
    TO20 Analyse the Current Political and Strategic Context
    TO21 Describe Structure and Roles of the British Armed Forces
    TO22 Explain the Capabilities And Operating Environment of a Battle Group


    Exercises take up 43% of programmed time. Exercises are the vital tool as vehicles both to support lessons taught under the majority of the TOs , for cadets to display the skills of leadership and command and for the DS to assess those skills and the cadets’ suitability for a commission.

    It is accepted wisdom that it is only by placing cadets in conditions of physical and mental stress that their endurance and resilience can be properly tested. Whilst the exercise programme is heavy and resource intensive it should be remembered that for the majority the realities of operations are imminent on completion of Course.

    The cadets also do a staff ride in Normandy which gives the cadets the chance to practise estimate and decision making against the backdrop of a past campaign. This is a challenging exercise which sees the integration of civilian and military staff at its best.

  11. #51
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rat View Post
    Just for information I have copied below the Training Objectives (TO) for the Commissioning Course at Sandhurst. Sandhurst remains different from other military academies in that it is a one year course focused on producing leaders to fill platoon command slots; it is not academically orientated.
    Thanks for that. Strange how Sandhurst focusses on producing Infantry Platoon Commander out of civilians, and yet the Infantry officers then have to go and do PCBC at Brecon to learn to be Platoon Commanders.

    I have never understood why we do not require all male officers to graduate from Infantry basic training, with the ranks and then do a short 4-month "Officer School/Selection" followed by special to arm training. What "Officer School" consists of is open to discussion, but looking at Sandhurst and the current system challenges my objectivity. I see no merit versus alternatives.

    I recently asked one of the Sandhurst Staff how many got failed out of the course and he told me, that it wasn't their job to fail people, but develop them. - This is fundamentally disagree with.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  12. #52
    Council Member Red Rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Thanks for that. Strange how Sandhurst focusses on producing Infantry Platoon Commander out of civilians, and yet the Infantry officers then have to go and do PCBC at Brecon to learn to be Platoon Commanders.
    I never understood that either when I went through. Platoon commanders' course has now changed considerably with overseas exercises and real soldiers to command. They still do not have the full range of operational weapon systems to train with though....

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    I have never understood why we do not require all male officers to graduate from Infantry basic training, with the ranks and then do a short 4-month "Officer School/Selection" followed by special to arm training. What "Officer School" consists of is open to discussion, but looking at Sandhurst and the current system challenges my objectivity. I see no merit versus alternatives.
    I think it is a cultural thing. The system works well enough and therefore there is no over-riding reason to change. I went through the old 'O' type system of Potential Officer Development Course which used to be compulsory for Scottish Division Officers. Basic training at Glencorse, no more then 4 hours sleep a night and a 'blind' programme where we did not know what was going to happen more then 2 hours in advance - those were the days There was some Treasury inspired talk some years ago of a common officer training academy for all 3 services but I think comon sense prevailed. None of the Services thought it would be a good thing. Our experience of joint training establishments is that the lowest common denominator (inevitably 'Light Blue'...) is adopted.
    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    I recently asked one of the Sandhurst Staff how many got failed out of the course and he told me, that it wasn't their job to fail people, but develop them. - This is fundamentally disagree with.
    Concur. Much depends on the attitude of the company commander, the laddie beside me sacked 5 of his cadets when he was company commanding at Sandhurst. Combat arm DS tend to be more demanding at Sandhurst, especially of those who aspire to join the combat arms.
    Last edited by Red Rat; 05-28-2010 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default To emphasize a poiint made by Red Rat

    Sandhurst is a training program, not an education program. However, a couple of TOs do have education (v training) content. Of course, all education has a training component while all training has an education component - think of the difference as between critical thinking and acquisition of skills. As Wilf and others have pointed out, there are many roads to officership. I would add that the American Officer Candidate School source of commissioning is as important as ROTC or the academies. I would also note that two of my students at OU this year are former enlisted who will be commissioing shortly through ROTC - one USAF and one US Army. In the Army this used to be known as Green to Gold.

    Cheers

    JohnT

  14. #54
    Council Member Red Rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    Sandhurst is a training program, not an education program. However, a couple of TOs do have education (v training) content.
    Concur. To elaborate further:

    TO 18/19 These 2 subjects take up 2% of programmed time. They are inextricably linked. Considerable time in the WS syllabus is however spent on aspects of military leadership. the programme is delivered by a mixture of military and academic staff, as are the operations of war lectures

    TO 20 This takes up 2% of programmed time and includes elements of TO7, specifically LOAC. The programme deals with themes rather than a chronological recounting of world events and influences on the present. Case studies are the key tool and the inclusion and integration of the academics into the military package complements and provides practical input.

    As an Army we are not intellectually minded at all and several senior officers I have spoken to have sataed that they would like to see more thinking happen, perhaps the opportunity for more officers at field officer grade to spend time in full time academic institutions.

    At junior grade there is common consensus that our training of junior staff officers (captains) is not fit for purpose.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    TO9 Perform Military Duties (including drill)

    ....and how much time does "drill" take up? Why we still do this to the extent we do, leaves me cold. And I did "Light Division Drill!"
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Depends on the unit, and branch. Reuven Gal's "Portrait of an Israeli Soldier" describes the whole process in detail. - (and book recommended to me by General Sir John Kiszely)

    Essentially, you have to pass out of basic training with a good score, be selected to do the JNCO course, and the best of those go on to be officers, while having served as JNCOs in the unit, to the satisfaction of the Commanding officer. It's very much about character, and ability.

    The current COS, Gabi Askenazi comes from an very impoverished and disadvantaged back ground. It is said, his introduction to combat and vigilance, was guarding the family's one chicken! Maybe an apocryphal story.
    Thanks, amazing what can be found in google books.

    It seems as follows (depending on what arm you are in):

    Basic training 3-4 months
    Service approx 13-14 months
    Officer training 4-6 months


    Then this:

    “Those who complete the officer courses will be commissioned as 2nd lieutenants and will return to their units (generally the same units where they served as regular soldiers and NCOs) and will be assigned to the position of platoon commander. The IDF officer is thus commissioned after twenty to twenty-four months military service, and with his acceptance of his commission, he acquires an additional twelve months of active duty time beyond the usual three years mandatory service. Accordingly the IDF can count on having these new officers for approximately two years of active duty after commissioning…”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rat View Post
    Just for information I have copied below the Training Objectives (TO) for the Commissioning Course at Sandhurst. Sandhurst remains different from other military academies in that it is a one year course focused on producing leaders to fill platoon command slots; it is not academically orientated.

    TO1 Demonstrate combat fitness
    TO2 Handle and fire platoon weapon systems
    TO3 Navigate across country
    TO4 Apply battlefield first aid
    TO5 Carry out basic fieldcraft
    TO6 Operate in a CBRN environment (Chem, bio and nuclear)
    TO7 Officership Ethics, integrity, values and standards
    TO8 Command
    TO9 Perform Military Duties (including drill)
    TO10 Communicate Effectively
    TO11 Spare
    TO12 Lead Individual and Team Training (adventure training, cadet platoon projects, sports et al)
    TO13 Spare
    TO14 Operate IT/IM Equipment
    TO15 Lead a Platoon
    TO16 Operate Tactical Communications Systems
    TO17 Apply knowledge of Tactics
    TO18 Analyse British Military Doctrine
    TO19 Analyse Military performance in Current Conflicts
    TO20 Analyse the Current Political and Strategic Context
    TO21 Describe Structure and Roles of the British Armed Forces
    TO22 Explain the Capabilities And Operating Environment of a Battle Group


    Exercises take up 43% of programmed time. Exercises are the vital tool as vehicles both to support lessons taught under the majority of the TOs , for cadets to display the skills of leadership and command and for the DS to assess those skills and the cadets’ suitability for a commission.

    It is accepted wisdom that it is only by placing cadets in conditions of physical and mental stress that their endurance and resilience can be properly tested. Whilst the exercise programme is heavy and resource intensive it should be remembered that for the majority the realities of operations are imminent on completion of Course.

    The cadets also do a staff ride in Normandy which gives the cadets the chance to practise estimate and decision making against the backdrop of a past campaign. This is a challenging exercise which sees the integration of civilian and military staff at its best.
    One needs to sit and work through this in greater detail to make comment but I would say TO18-21 maybe inserted as a nice to have rather than serve any real purpose. I sometimes think it unfair on the youngsters to give them a taste of critical thinking only to see their initiative and enthusiasm dashed by the "system" later. At the School of Infantry I took both a National Service Officer course and a Regular Cadet Course (1 year). I agree with the one year highly practical approach but not sure of the Normandy bit though (maybe more of a jolly for the DS What about 3-4 weeks in Afghanistan? Take them on an op get them into a contact or two? (seriously)

  18. #58
    Council Member Red Rat's Avatar
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    Default Marching and Marking Time

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    TO9
    ....and how much time does "drill" take up?
    Quoting the party line:

    Drill takes up 4% of the programmed time, which includes rehearsals for and the Sovereign’s Parade (SP).
    Drill is an essential, quick and easy part of team building, instilling martial spirit. It accustoms cadets to taking and reacting to orders.
    Despite the programmed time the standard is deemed only just good enough for a high profile parade such as SP.

    When I was at Sandhurst I seem to remember that Drill featured heavily in Term 1 and then tailed off significantly thereafter.

    No Light Division drill (for the uninitiated a cross between jogging and Monty Python's Ministry of Funny Walks... ) and Slow Marching is likely to finish soon as well.

    RR

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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    The IDF produce generally very competent officers, with a great deal of command experience, if you get slated for the Command stream. I know one guys who has commanded 3 Battalions and 2 Brigades - all for 3 years!
    All Majors are now expected to go and get a Masters Degree - why I do not know!
    The German Army of the 1930's - 50's 60' and into the 1980's produced above average combat officers, by the accounts of the men who have studied them.

    My point, and nothing to do with US Service Academies, is that there is a good body of evidence that says you can produce very good officers without too much cost, time or process. Surely that is the requirement?
    The German officer training system of those eras (it has I believe changed a bit now) and that of the Israelis is quite similar in some ways, requiring short service in the ranks, passing junior NCO courses etc. Do you know if the Israelis consciously modeled their system on the German one (seems unlikely but you never know) or if it just developed that way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    I have never understood why we do not require all male officers to graduate from Infantry basic training, with the ranks and then do a short 4-month "Officer School/Selection" followed by special to arm training. What "Officer School" consists of is open to discussion, but looking at Sandhurst and the current system challenges my objectivity. I see no merit versus alternatives.
    That would be a lot like the system used by the British Army in WW2 which by 1942 went something like this:

    6 weeks basic training at a Primary Training Centre
    War Office Selection Board, usually for those coming straight from a PTC followed by a pre-OCTU course of a few weeks. Some went through 3 months or so at an Infantry Training Centre/RAC or RA Training Regt etc before WOSB.
    4-6 months at an Officer Cadet Training Unit, depending on the type of establishment and time of the war. There were several OCTUs for each arm or service.

    Serving private soldiers and NCOs could also be recommended for officer training provided they passed the WOSB.

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