The combat shotgun

[Kiwigrunt]

This video shows the new UK combat shotgun. I believe NZ has adopted a shorter barreled version of the same weapon. The US have had this weapon as a standard now for some years but they still don't seem to be used much at squad level.

What are your thoughts on replacing a rifleman's individual weapon with a hard-kicking short range shotgun? Personally I can't see much of an increase in capability beyond breaching doors and perhaps stopping vehicles with solid slug. I think if I was point man of a patrol I'd prefer an assault rifle any day.

Does a shotty really increase the chance of a hit because of the spread? The spread is not all that great so you still have to aim just the same. And there are already two short-barrelled Minimi's per section. A short burst at short range.....? Or a short burst with an IW (dare I suggest it)?

It's hard to argue the stopping power but that is probably more a discussion about 5.56. I'd hope that the introduction of a whole new weapon is not a round-about way of overcoming that.

[morealtitude]

I'd agree that a shottie doesn't appear to provide much advantage in infantry combat, with very specific exceptions. 'Spread' as you say is limited, and with spread, the stopping-power of a .12-guage discharge is going to be pretty limited beyond very close range, even if you manage to wing somebody. Given reduced stopping-power (except at ranges below ~30 feet) and vastly reduced range versus AR (esp 7.62mm variants) I wouldn't want a combat shotgun as my primary. The only real use I can see for it would be, as you say, for breaching, and possibly room clearance in CQC context, and I would see its value only as a secondary personal weapon. This is certainly not a solution to the 5.56mm debate.

[JMA]

This video What are your thoughts on replacing a rifleman's individual weapon with a hard-kicking short range shotgun? Personally I can't see much of an increase in capability beyond breaching doors and perhaps stopping vehicles with solid slug. I think if I was point man of a patrol I'd prefer an assault rifle any day.

As a young officer I carried a shotgun until I had a contact while on the move at last light. Fired the 7 rounds in about 3 secs then caught my finger while trying to reload. Luckily a cheap lesson learned.

Thereafter only allowed a shotgun as a second weapon and only for ambush ops where he would fire the seven shots then pick up his FN and take it further from there. (and a Claymore mine was better than 10 shotguns)

What ammo? Can't see any point in a solid slug. Otherwise LG, 00, SG?

In that video they talk about coming across enemy at close range in the corn fields. Are the TB such idiots that they will hide out in corn fields? Best way to clear cornfields is from the air looking down.

Seen that type of shotgun in photos of US Marines. What's their experience?

[SethB]

Shotgun slugs buzz through cars and other barriers very, very well. Other than that... They can be used to 100M or more with some degree of accuracy.

Buckshot at a short range will be so closely spaced that you'll need to sue the sights. Beyond optimum range it spreads out and you need to use slugs.

Properly shooting a shotgun requires a great deal of training. You have to be on top of ammunition management, able to switch munitions at will and you have to know how to use them in order to get full effect, such as being able to use richochets to get into dead space.

I don't claim to know how to use one. I had such a shotgun for a while and grew tired of the deficiencies when compared to an M4 copy.

[Chris jM]

What ammo? Can't see any point in a solid slug. Otherwise LG, 00, SG?

In terms of lethal ammunition, your right in that their appears to be some obvious drawbacks to the buckshot/ slug type rounds.

There are, however, some pretty impressive rounds out there for the close-in infantry fight. A British firm produces the FRAG-12 which is a family of HE rounds. One is designed for stand-off breaching, one for anti-pers and one for armour penetration (I'd read this as more penetrating a barricade or engine block rather than the traditional blowing through an APC's side, though). I know the USMC trialled these a few years back; beyond that I don't know who is using them or where. The company claims all the FRAG-12 have a max range of 200m.

Link: http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/FRAG%2012.pdf

I mentioned the Less Lethal application of shotgun in this thread (http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ad.php?t=10380), which died rather quickly. Of interest, though, is the XERP 12 ga round that can be fired from any std shotgun.

The Taser XREP 12ga shell: http://www.taser.com/pages/VideoDetails.aspx?videoid=97

[Polarbear1605]

I was a US Marine Security Force Combat Pistol and Shotgun instructor for a short while, many, many years ago. As officer I also made it a point to carry a shotgun when I was in combat. IMO the shotgun is an outstanding weapon, and at least one should be welcomed in each rifle squad. The variety of ammo is a major advantage. If you are going to carry one in combat you definitely need the slug rounds because sooner or later you will need to reach out and touch someone passed that 20 to 40 meters range. The good thing about the slug is it will drop anything it hits; even if it does not penetrate body armor and it is amazingly accurate. With a little practice the operator can quickly switch between 00 buck and slugs. The true tribute to the shotgun is the WWI trench shotgun. It had two primary purposes; first in the defense to prevent the trench from being overrun. The trench shotgun did not have a trigger disconnector allowing the weapon to be fired each time it was pumped. Six rounds of 00 buck (6x9 pellets) meant the weapons could quickly launch 54 32 cal rounds. I was surprised to see this scenario in the recent HBO series “Pacific” showing John Basilone’s heroics. Of course, trench clearing was the second purpose. Again very effective, in fact, it was so effective the Germans of WW1 tried to have it outlawed.

[Firn]

I was a US Marine Security Force Combat Pistol and Shotgun instructor for a short while, many, many years ago. As officer I also made it a point to carry a shotgun when I was in combat. IMO the shotgun is an outstanding weapon, and at least one should be welcomed in each rifle squad. The variety of ammo is a major advantage. If you are going to carry one in combat you definitely need the slug rounds because sooner or later you will need to reach out and touch someone passed that 20 to 40 meters range. The good thing about the slug is it will drop anything it hits; even if it does not penetrate body armor and it is amazingly accurate.

I have never wielded a combat shotgun, only the hunting variety. Anyway the Paradox gun , basically a 12-gauge shotgun with a barrel which was only rifled close to the end of the barrel was considered by many experienced big game hunters of the British Empire to be with a soft, heavy lead slug a fantastic choice for pretty much any dangerous game bar the most thick-skinned of game (rhinos, elephants). A huge advantage of the slow but heavy slug was that it kept trucking even when it hit twigs and grass - not bad when shooting at a Tiger charging through the high grass. ( I personally never have used a slug on game, as it is strangly outlawed in my region to do so)

Weighing in the case of a 12-bore but 7 Ibs. or 7 1/2 Ibs., the Paradox shoots a heavy conical ball with extreme accuracy up to 100 yards or more, while when used with shot, it is as effective as a good shot gun. Its lightness, handiness ands power render it a most valuable weapon for tiger or bear shooting, as also for use upon deer in forested areas, and for running shots up to 100 yards or so, it is to be preferred to any rifle. (the .303 Lee was already in heavy military and hunting use)

That pretty much sums the power of a slug up.

With a little practice the operator can quickly switch between 00 buck and slugs. The true tribute to the shotgun is the WWI trench shotgun. It had two primary purposes; first in the defense to prevent the trench from being overrun. The trench shotgun did not have a trigger disconnector allowing the weapon to be fired each time it was pumped. Six rounds of 00 buck (6x9 pellets) meant the weapons could quickly launch 54 32 cal rounds. I was surprised to see this scenario in the recent HBO series “Pacific” showing John Basilone’s heroics. Of course, trench clearing was the second purpose. Again very effective, in fact, it was so effective the Germans of WW1 tried to have it outlawed.

The experienced hunter and possibly the main driving force behind the British sniping effort in WWI, MAJOR H. HESKETH-PRICHARD wrote the following in this regard:

I was always very much afraid all through the war that, having started poison gas, the Germans might start using shot guns loaded with buckshot for work between the trenches. Had they done so, patrolling would have become a horrible business ; but I suppose that they were restrained by the fact either that such weapons are not allowed by the Geneva Convention, or that the British Isles have such a supply of shot guns and cartridges that the advantage would not remain long upon their side. As it was, things were much more satisfactory, for there was plenty of excitement out in No Man's Land, what with machine-gun bullets and rifle fire, without the added horror of a charge of small shot in the face.

This was of course before the common soldier had access to assault rifles and machine pistols. In short I have no doubt in its power, I just wonder if it is worth the weight, especially that of the heavy ammunition. I guess it depends very much on the specific situations.


Firn

[qp4]

I'm not sure that anyone could seriously say that carrying a shotgun is a replacement for a rifle or carbine. The only time I've seen people toting shotguns as a primary weapon is because it just looks cooler, same as the one knee pad thing, and it's been on FOBs. My experience with the shotgun is purely as a breaching tool, and it stays backslung except to pop doors.

[Infanteer]

My guys loved carrying it for the LCF - we'd usually always have one strapped to a bag on patrol. More a tool than a weapon in our line of work, but the intimidation factor works well; I had guys bring them out to get some restless locals to calm down once....

[William F. Owen]

What are your thoughts on replacing a rifleman's individual weapon with a hard-kicking short range shotgun? Personally I can't see much of an increase in capability beyond breaching doors and perhaps stopping vehicles with solid slug. I think if I was point man of a patrol I'd prefer an assault rifle any day.

Concur. I played a lot with the UK issue Remington 870 "Wing master." Complete waste of time for anything other than breaching.

To agree with JMA, I would not want to blunder into a Talib in a corn field with just a shotgun. Anything you can do with it, you can do better with an L85 - IMO, but I'll defer to anyone with actual relevant experience.

[Chris jM]

This video shows the new UK combat shotgun. I believe NZ has adopted a shorter barreled version of the same weapon. The US have had this weapon as a standard now for some years but they still don't seem to be used much at squad level.

The NZDF has the Benelli M3A1 and, to my untrained eye, it looks like the Brits have the M3 of some description, too. We have two barrels in service as well, and the user can swap them as required.

They are intended to be used as a secondary wpn in all mid to high intensity tasks.