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Thread: The combat shotgun

  1. #41
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    I think he aimed rather at the problem how to value life.
    We've discussed this in a thread here before, and there were several voice clearly in support of valueing the life of a foreign civilian much lighter than the life of an own (or allied yet not indigenous) soldier.

    That and the respect for civil liberties, property and so on are interesting topics.

    Let's assume a terrorist was spotted in the U.S., and the police searched his village and house the same way the military would do in Afghanistan. What would be the public reaction about the behaviour?

    Or let's think about roadblocks/checkpoints.


    The different respect for life can lead to different hardware choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    I'll have to start a thread on this at some point, but frankly whatever the national political authorities decide the army will do is "work for an army." It may not be the army's preferred work, and it might well clash (in terms of TTPs) with other things the army does. That's life.
    Yes please start that new thread.

    There is not enough time to train the "army" (any army) to carryout all the various tasks politicians commit them to.

    There are not enough people in every country who are intellectually capable of switching from from task to another at the drop of a hat and then onto a third shortly thereafter.

    The word "policing" should give it away. When its policing they want then they should use the police or a police force.

    Anyway I await your thread on this topic with some interest.
    Last edited by JMA; 06-21-2010 at 07:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    The word "policing" should give it away. When its policing they want then they should use the police or a police force.
    I agree but they might need to be Military Police as opposed to just regular police. In a lot of ways Military police and Military Policing are a much better concept for what a COIN force could or should look like.

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    Default Turning the tables round

    Fuchs cited:
    Let's assume a terrorist was spotted in the U.S., and the police searched his village and house the same way the military would do in Afghanistan. What would be the public reaction about the behaviour? Or let's think about roadblocks/checkpoints.
    I know a well known writer has used this situation before and IIRC used words similar to "Imagine an Iraqi security force patrol conducts a house search / VCP in the USA, based on Iraqi law and RoE, with the same language skills as the US military in Iraq".

    Indeed I suspect we have had posts, even a thread on that theme before.

    JMA & Rex,

    Been a long day, what is the new thread about? I'll happily start one off.
    davidbfpo

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    getting back to the point, question; is the shotgun a valid weapon for use by the infantry? any weapon is valid for use by the infantry, when two key points are applied, is it nessicary to acomplish the mission , is it used with in it's limits as a weapon. this , unfortunitly, assumes the operator is both adiquitly supplied and trained in the use of said weapon

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    Quote Originally Posted by fwi1298 View Post
    getting back to the point, question; is the shotgun a valid weapon for use by the infantry? any weapon is valid for use by the infantry, when two key points are applied, is it nessicary to acomplish the mission , is it used with in it's limits as a weapon. this , unfortunitly, assumes the operator is both adiquitly supplied and trained in the use of said weapon
    I have written this in a couple of other mediums, but I'll share it here also:
    Full Spectrum Shotgun Employment

    The shotgun is the most misunderstood weapon in the Brigade Combat Team. The combat shotgun has found new life in the Infantry during the war on terror and through “Modularity” with the BCT being equipped with 178 M-500 shotguns. However, at issue is that no single “doctrinal” resource exists supporting the current combination of roles the shotgun is being employed in. Units are forced to either search through multiple FM’s, depend on unit “SME’s”, or simply make it up. The result is often shotguns being used in improper roles such as a primary weapon without a stock or supporting pistol, or as a secondary weapon with the full stock slung across the soldiers back. Here I will attempt to impart the lessons learned over the last five years of employing shotguns in the 10th Mountain Division.
    Methods of Employment:

    The shotgun should be employed in one of two methods. In the first method the shotgun is employed as a primary weapon with a full stock. Considerations for the commander when employed in this manner are the limited range and reduced ammo capacity of the shotgun. A soldier conducting house to house fighting at close ranges may be well served by the standard shotgun. However, skills that must be ingrained are: reloading constantly or the “load what you shoot” rule and transitioning to a handgun. With only six rounds at their disposal a shot-gunner may find themselves out of ammo quickly in a fire fight. Reloads must occur at every lull in the fight. Transitioning to a hand gun is one method of staying in the fight if you run out of ammo. Simply put, the shotgun is lowered and the M-9 is drawn and a controlled pair fired when the shotgun is out of ammo. The shot gunner maintains the M-9 until the situation allows him to reload the shotgun. The same process is used for a stoppage that can not be cleared by immediate action.

    In the second method the shotgun is employed as a secondary weapon. In this case the primary weapon for the soldier is the M-4 or M-16. The shotgun is then typically employed with a pistol grip and some sort of retention system. The 10th Mountains Infantry ILARM course teaches the shotgun being slung on the firer’s side and to transition from the M-4 to the shotgun, then back again.

    In the role of a secondary weapon to the M-4 the shotgun is carried un-cocked on an empty chamber or with an expended cartridge in the chamber. When employed the gunner pulls the M-4 across his body away from the shotgun, then brings up the shotgun, racks the slide and fires. Once engagement is complete the gunner leaves the shotgun action closed on the expended round and transitions back to the M-4.This process is repeated as required. The gunner will then reload the shotgun when the tactical situation permits.

    The fundamental operation of the shotgun in ether role is the same. Vigorous racking of the slide back then forward assures positive extraction, ejection and chambering of the rounds. Weak manipulation of the slide will result in the shotgun suffering a malfunction. Immediate action for any malfunction is to cycle the action again. If you are still unable to fire transition to the M-9 or M-4 and continue the fight. Once the tactical situation allows go into remedial actions to clear the malfunction or reload as required.

    Operational Roles of the Shotgun:

    The greatest strength of the shotgun and its greatest weakness is the versatility of its ammo. Everything from bird hunting loads, slugs, flares; to 12 ga. High Explosive rounds are available today. Currently the Army only authorizes a few loads: #9 Shot, 00 Buck, M-1030 Breaching rounds, M-1012 and 1013 Less Lethal rounds. Other rounds such as the Action FRAG-12 (USMC), Joint Non-Lethal Warning Munition (JNLWM), XM-104 Non-Lethal Bursting Hand Grenade and the Extended Range Point Less-Lethal Munitions are in various stages of development and should be expected to lead to new training requirements. This leaves a bewildering array of possible roles, anti-personnel, breaching, less-lethal, ect based on the type of rounds at the commanders disposal. Further many rounds can be used in multiple roles. For example 00 buck can be used to conduct breaches, but presents an increased risk of collateral damage to civilians of fellow soldiers. Also, lack of a STRAC that sufficiently supports training with the shotgun has extremely hampered commanders understanding the shotgun.

    Currently, the shotguns roles can be divided into three general roles: 1. Offensive Weapon, 2. Breacher, 3. Less-Lethal Munitions delivery system.

    As an offensive weapon the shotgun should be employed as a full stocked weapon employing 00# buckshot rounds, supported by a pistol (M-9 or M-9A1 for the US military). In this role commanders must account for the limited effective range of the shotgun. Employing the current 00# buckshot loads 25-35 meters is the soldier’s realistic effective range. Employed without a stock this range is reduced to approximately 10-15 meters. Future munitions such as the Action FRAG-12 or a type classified slug round combined with an improved sighting systems should be expected to increase this range to 100 meters when accompanied by an improved sighting system.

    In the breaching role the shotgun provides the commander with increased momentum when conducting urban operations. The breaching shotgun is extremely effective in quickly defeating locked doors with reduced risk to the soldier compared to manual breaching methods. The M-1030 round is the primary breaching round, however, has only been procured in small numbers. The M-1030 round presents the most effective breaching round and presents the lowest risk for collateral damage. Commanders should also be aware that M-1030 rounds are not effective anti-personal rounds much further than arms reach.

    ALWAYS USE BALLISTIC EYE PROTECTIVE GOOGLES WHEN CONDUCTING BALLISTIC BREACHING

    In the role of less-lethal munitions delivery system the 12 gauge shotgun offers exceptional versatility. Utilizing the shotgun instead of systems such as the FN-303 Individual Serviceman Non-Lethal System (ISNLS) reduces the training and sustainment burden on the commander also, since he already has shotguns organic to the unit. Here, more then any area, though the lack of training ammo or qualification standards has defeated the commander. The current M-1012 round provides the commander with a low to medium point pain compliance munitions effective to about 30 meters. The M-1012 round is most effective in a low threat environment against an individual target. The M-1013 is a medium pain compliance round designed for use against multiple targets, however, it is also effective against a point target. Munitions such as the USMC Sting ball grenade or Army XM-104 Non-Lethal Bursting Hand Grenade, with grenade launching cup extend the less lethal range up to 100 meters. Employed from the grenade launching cup attached to the shotgun the commander has an extremely effective method of dispersing rioting mobs. Developmental rounds such as the Flarebang also provide the commander with the ability to deliver more effective warning shots by providing a visual and audio cue. This round should approve exceptionally effective at check points.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-27-2010 at 05:01 PM. Reason: PM to author re copyright and size of quote.

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    continued
    SOPs:

    Units must consider how they configure their combat loads of shotgun ammo if they are using multiple types of ammo on a operation. Units must determine the method of employment, then the role the shotguns will be used in. For example the commander determines that they will employ the shotgun as a secondary weapon. He further sees the role as being primarily to conduct breaching with a secondary mission of delivering Less-Lethal munitions. The commander elects in this case to designate shotguns as primary breachers and proscribes they will be loaded with breaching rounds in the mag tube, breaching rounds in the shotgun ammo pouch (fighting load) and less lethal ammo carried in the right canteen pouch (sustainment load). In each case the chamber is empty or after initial contact is closed with the pump unlocked.

    Commanders may also segregate the types of munitions into special teams. The commander thus reduces the requirement to clear weapons in order to switch munitions. Instead the squad leaders are able to call forward a special team to meet the need as required. He has further reduced the likely hood of firing a lethal breaching round into a situation requiring less-lethal. Further segregating the load carried by the soldier reduces the likely hood of introducing the “wrong” round while reloading.

    The same principles apply when the shotgun is employed as a primary weapon. The primary difference is based on METT-T one of the two loads carried should be 00 Buck. This provides the shot gunners lethal force and specialty munitions as required. Mixing more then two types (lethal, less lethal and breaching) of ammo per soldier should carefully considered and have sufficient measures in place to prevent employing the wrong munitions for the target.

    Training Plans:

    Commanders frequently are unable to locate qualification standards due to the lack of a supporting field manual. The STP for shotgun qualification is no longer in print and is difficult to locate online also. Short Range Marksmanship (SRM) standards are ironically listed in the M-16 manual. Listed after the M-16 SRM standards shotgun and automatic firing standards are described as being the same as rifle SRM. Less-Lethal munitions also do not have a published standard. The Civil Disturbance Manual, FM 3-19 and FM 3-22.40 Tactical Employment of Non-Lethal Weapons outlines a recommended range standard; however, notes the Army Does not have a qualification standard. Furthermore, no standards for breaching qualifications are published Army wide.

    STRAC also does little to help commanders. Different types of Infantry organizations have different STRAC authorizations, with the Stryker BDE’s being the best resourced (Table 5-79). Some of those authorizations include breaching munitions, some do not. None of the STRAC shotgun tables support Short Range Marksmanship or Live Fire Exercises. Commanders must develop and resources a realistic training plan that will allow them to integrate the shotgun in to the full spectrum of operations. They must then push for the training system to provide them with enough ammunition to support their plan.

    When developing their Breaching training plan the question of procuring doors is a frequent issue. A command or installation faces purchasing enough doors for 178 shotguns per BCT to conduct shotgun breaching semi-annually. Commanders should consider using such training aids as the Breaching Technology’s Shotgun Breaching Door or Royal Arms Breach Door Trainer. Either door provides for a reusable training door that can be emplaced in a MOUT Site or MOUT LFX facility in support of all phases of training. Both doors support M-1030 rounds. Prior to procuring any breaching doors the command must do a risk assessment and is advised to coordinate their actions with the Installation Safety Office and their Range Division.

    Commanders must also be aware that units and individuals are also modifying the issue shotguns to better meet their requirements with un-tested commercial parts. Such modifications are violating the Technical Manual and Army Regulation 750-10 Army Modification Program. While there are improvements that could be made to the issue shotgun, they are outside the scope of this article. Currently the only approved method for requesting modifications is through an Operational Needs Statement for “Special Missions Modifications”.

    Once properly understood and resourced the shotgun presents the commander with many additional capabilities that he is able to tailor to his mission. From lethal force to less-lethal or breaching the combat shotgun is on hand and ready to support the Infantry.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-27-2010 at 05:01 PM. Reason: PM to author re copyright and size of quote.

  8. #48
    Council Member Kiwigrunt's Avatar
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    Who dat?

    Kiwi shotgun
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
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    Default In the words of my great-grandma

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwigrunt View Post
    Who dat?

    Kiwi shotgun
    “I’ve never seen such as that.” A pump or automatic shotgun, that is. I understand the theoretical advantages, but how does it hold up in practice? I tend to prefer as few pieces as possible in pieces of technology, myself. I tend to see every additional part as one more thing that might break.

    As if anyone asked me, of course!
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    “I’ve never seen such as that.” A pump or automatic shotgun, that is. I understand the theoretical advantages, but how does it hold up in practice? I tend to prefer as few pieces as possible in pieces of technology, myself. I tend to see every additional part as one more thing that might break.

    As if anyone asked me, of course!
    This point is often brought up in comparing pumps with semi-autos. Pumps have fewer fiddly bits that can break down, and they are not sensitive to underpowered ammo.

    Hopefully the fact that a Benelli like the M3 is about three times the price of an 870 will be reflected in the quality of the weapon. I think this M3 could indeed be the best of both worlds. It gives you a semi most of the time with the ability to ‘simplify’ it down to a pump, rather than seeing it as a pump that has been made unnecessarily complicated.

    That does however leave the question, does it complicate training unnecessarily?
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMR View Post
    I have written this in a couple of other mediums, but I'll share it here also: Action FRAG-12 (USMC),
    Having written about shotguns before, nice - two thumbs up!

    That little Frag round deserves it's own footnote

    http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/FRAG%2012.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I agree but they might need to be Military Police as opposed to just regular police. In a lot of ways Military police and Military Policing are a much better concept for what a COIN force could or should look like.
    I think that, in practice, a marchausse or gendarmerie is not quite the same thing as the US military's Military Police or Security Forces.

    A shotgun can be a good tool in the toolbox. Just ensure individuals are properly trained on it. I distinctly remember some folks who replaced me in Ramadi in '04 complaining that they only had a limited amount of shotguns...and one of their "moto" Majors insisted on carrying one of them himself. That's probably not the appropriate use of a shotgun, unless he was the primary breacher for the battalion.

    Also, has anyone considered the Saiga-12?

    http://en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120131/171045859.html

    Izhmash, the manufacturer of the legendary Kalashnikov AK-47, will supply Saiga-12 semi-automatic smoothbore shotguns to a number of police forces in the U.S., Izhmash reported on its web site on Tuesday.
    The contracts were signed at the Shot Show exhibition in Las Vegas on January 17-20. The first Saiga-12 deliveries to U.S. law enforcement were already made in January 2012, Izhmash General Director Maxim Kuzyuk said.
    At the exhibition, Izhmash also signed an agreement on exclusive imports to the U.S. market with Russian Weapon Company and an agreement with Fime Group as Izhmashs partner for manufacturing classic firearm models.
    Last edited by Vojnik; 02-02-2012 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Link to article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    “I’ve never seen such as that.” A pump or automatic shotgun, that is.
    Really? The SPAS-12 dates back to 1979. And if you've seen the original Jurassic Park" movie from 1993, you've seen a SPAS-12. Works fine against dinosaurs.

    I think the key here is training. I don't think that there are enough man-hours devoted to good-quality rifle/carbine handling and marksmanship now. Issuing weapons without issuing knowledge is silly.

    The "value of life" conversation, as well as the "Iraqi Army/ANA in America role-reversal", definitely has been done quite a bit. However, in either case, I don't think that the majority of individuals will know exactly what to do in either situation, until they are actually confronted by it. Also, that exact moment when things go from "policing" to "combat" is often a bit fuzzy.
    Last edited by Vojnik; 02-02-2012 at 06:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vojnik View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    “I’ve never seen such as that.” A pump or automatic shotgun, that is.
    Really? The SPAS-12 dates back to 1979.
    Even though I’ve never been one of those Americans—“Matthew’s a tolerable American!” as someone who isn’t quite clear on what the word ‘compliment’ means once proclaimed in my presence—but even I don’t know why an American would need to know anything about imported scatterguns. It would be like an Italian cyclist riding a Cannondale or something.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    Even though I’ve never been one of those Americans—“Matthew’s a tolerable American!” as someone who isn’t quite clear on what the word ‘compliment’ means once proclaimed in my presence—but even I don’t know why an American would need to know anything about imported scatterguns. It would be like an Italian cyclist riding a Cannondale or something.
    What about the Berettas, the Benellis, the Franchis? Italy is rightly considered to be a country of the shotgun, not the rifle, as a battuta di caccia was more about fowl or rabbits then deer.

    Anyway a modern high-quality semi-automatic shotgun is as a modern full-suspension MTB a fine piece of modern technology, even an American one

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    “I’ve never seen such as that.” A pump or automatic shotgun, that is. I understand the theoretical advantages, but how does it hold up in practice? I tend to prefer as few pieces as possible in pieces of technology, myself. I tend to see every additional part as one more thing that might break.

    As if anyone asked me, of course!
    Hey Matt,
    Actually, the idea is fairly sound if you consider why the folks at Colt put a "forward assist" on an (ahem) otherwise fully functioning semi and full auto weapon - the M-16 (most of us wondered about that since the early 70s). A semi-automatic shotgun is prone to jams for all the reasons Kiwigrunt posted and having the pump in place is remotely (ass-backwards) the same as having a forward assist. You can either slam the round home (bad idea if time is on your side), or choose to eject the jammed round (real good idea even if time isn't on your side ).

    In closing, I wouldn't trade my Winchester 1200 for any of those fancy Italian or Russian works of art. If it ain't broke....
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    I would not want a shotgun as my primary. Although there are shotguns that take magazines, ammunition management and reload speed would suck. Now, searching small boats, or small rooms with lots of people, ok, but I would think a sub gun would do the job better. I have only trained a few times in shoot houses, but it was enough to give me the opinion that a shotgun is big and heavy, and shells go all over when I get freaked out or excited, when I really just want them to go in the gun. I need to learn to load without flipping it over lol. Too bad about flechette rounds. Then, you would have something. I could not manage differentiating between lethal and less than, under stress. I mean, would you look down at the round? only have those rounds in certain loops on your gear? It gives me the creepy crawlies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Hey Matt,
    Actually, the idea is fairly sound if you consider why the folks at Colt put a "forward assist" on an (ahem) otherwise fully functioning semi and full auto weapon - the M-16 (most of us wondered about that since the early 70s). A semi-automatic shotgun is prone to jams for all the reasons Kiwigrunt posted and having the pump in place is remotely (ass-backwards) the same as having a forward assist. You can either slam the round home (bad idea if time is on your side), or choose to eject the jammed round (real good idea even if time isn't on your side ).
    My original thought was that rolling two functions into one gun (a semi-auto for heavy loads and a pump for less lethal loads) could lead to unfortunate situations both ways. But it does make sense to think of it as a semi-auto that’s easier to clear.

    You could also deal with the rate of fire vs. jamming dialectic by buying up some Ithaca 37s. Though I assume a different set of unfortunate situations might ensue.
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    Even though I’ve never been one of those Americans—“Matthew’s a tolerable American!” as someone who isn’t quite clear on what the word ‘compliment’ means once proclaimed in my presence—but even I don’t know why an American would need to know anything about imported scatterguns. It would be like an Italian cyclist riding a Cannondale or something.
    Touche, my good sir.

    Also, I would not want a shotgun as a primary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vojnik View Post
    Really? The SPAS-12 dates back to 1979. And if you've seen the original Jurassic Park" movie from 1993, you've seen a SPAS-12. Works fine against dinosaurs.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vxK4kf4AqA

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