Destroying Tar Opium

[jcustis]

This would normally fit the RFI section best, but there may be some old afghan hands here who can help out.

If one had 10-kilo bags of opium tar and had to destroy them, but didn't have access to an incinerator, what would be the best way to ensure a high-temp burn that renders any remaining residue incapable of being trafficked?

Our first thoughts are to experiment with a layer of bags on top of tires or shredded pieces of tires, then four or five wood pallets. Saturated with enought JP-8 to help keep the firing running hot, our guess is that the wet tar will be broken down enough and eventually vaporized, that it won't be viable as a drug base any longer.

Some of this stuff is currently expanding from the heat inside of the evidence ISO container we have, and bursting out of the bags. HHQ is going to relieve us of the current quantity on hand, but we need a solution for future interdictions.

And yes, once again I have come to the council to pose the oddest of queries.

[slapout9]

This would normally fit the RFI section best, but there may be some old afghan hands here who can help out.

If one had 10-kilo bags of opium tar and had to destroy them, but didn't have access to an incinerator, what would be the best way to ensure a high-temp burn that renders any remaining residue incapable of being trafficked?

Our first thoughts are to experiment with a layer of bags on top of tires or shredded pieces of tires, then four or five wood pallets. Saturated with enought JP-8 to help keep the firing running hot, our guess is that the wet tar will be broken down enough and eventually vaporized, that it won't be viable as a drug base any longer.

Some of this stuff is currently expanding from the heat inside of the evidence ISO container we have, and bursting out of the bags. HHQ is going to relieve us of the current quantity on hand, but we need a solution for future interdictions.

And yes, once again I have come to the council to pose the oddest of queries.

Remember the old shi@ details. Put it in a 55 gallon drum and pour the JP-8 (JP-4 in my day)on them and light it, stir occasionally until done

[jcustis]

No worry of popping positive from sh*t fumes, but I suspect we will have to be upwind of the fire some distance for this type of burn.

And even easier question, I suppose, might be how one could build a mobile, incinerator.

[William F. Owen]

And yes, once again I have come to the council to pose the oddest of queries.

OK, I fully confess to this not being my expert area, but having had to ponder long and hard on the destruction of a number of items from document to armoured vehicles, I would first ask "do you have to burn it?"

Could it be rendered useless by immersion in cleaning solutions, fuels or some other commonly available chemical. Can you corrupt it, rather than destroy it? I would assume making it useless or of no intrinsic value is as good as physical destruction.
Just a thought.

[slapout9]

OK, I fully confess to this not being my expert area, but having had to ponder long and hard on the destruction of a number of items from document to armoured vehicles, I would first ask "do you have to burn it?"

Could it be rendered useless by immersion in cleaning solutions, fuels or some other commonly available chemical. Can you corrupt it, rather than destroy it? I would assume making it useless or of no intrinsic value is as good as physical destruction.
Just a thought.

Put Lime on it. Lime will decompose anything organic, farmers and old folks use it on road kill in Alabama. Bad news is it takes awhile and wind can be be a problem.

[jcustis]

Someone researched that mixing it with sulfuric acid would render its chemical properties "inert" so to speak, but I tend to think there is some voodoo science with that, since opium is already mixed with a dizzying array of chemicals to get morphine base, then heroin.

We are also talking about a very large quantity of hazardous material, and despite being in a combat environment, that cannot be simply dumped in the dirt.

[slapout9]

No worry of popping positive from sh*t fumes, but I suspect we will have to be upwind of the fire some distance for this type of burn.

And even easier question, I suppose, might be how one could build a mobile, incinerator.

Put the drum on wheels
See my post on lime. We used to use Lime to close field latrines at Ft. Bragg. The other thing I would look at as far as mobility is to literally mix it with shi@ and have the port-a-john truck just suck it up all up mixed together and dispose of it at a regular waste dump or whatever method you would use over there.

[William F. Owen]

Put Lime on it. Lime will decompose anything organic, farmers and old folks use it on road kill in Alabama. Bad news is it takes awhile and wind can be be a problem.

That seems smart. Even a lime solution, in drums inside an ISO container?

but I tend to think there is some voodoo science with that, since opium is already mixed with a dizzying array of chemicals to get morphine base, then heroin.

Agree, but could some "Jam jar" experimentation solve that. I am sure you could hand a treated sample to a local amateur chemist and ask him if it's any good, now you've "altered" it?

[William F. Owen]

Put the drum on wheels
See my post on lime. We used to use Lime to close field latrines at Ft. Bragg. The other thing I would look at as far as mobility is to literally mix it with shi@ and have the port-a-john truck just suck it up all up mixed together and dispose of it at a regular waste dump or whatever method you would use over there.

Genius!!
Why not just dump it in the "sh*t cans" and ship it out. Maybe annoyingly simple, but why be smart when dumb works better?

[jcustis]

I like the idea you've got there slap to render it down with lime, and then mix it with blue water, a little bit of the refuse of the day's chow, and then push it into the leech pits for the blackwater we have outside the perimeter berm, but under the eye of guard towers. No money to be made off of that mixture for some time.

We are getting somewhere guys.

[slapout9]

I like the idea you've got there slap to render it down with lime, and then mix it with blue water, a little bit of the refuse of the day's chow, and then push it into the leech pits for the blackwater we have outside the perimeter berm, but under the eye of guard towers. No money to be made off of that mixture for some time.

We are getting somewhere guys.

Have to go do chores now will think on it some more. Stay safe.

[JMA]

This would normally fit the RFI section best, but there may be some old afghan hands here who can help out.

If one had 10-kilo bags of opium tar and had to destroy them, but didn't have access to an incinerator, what would be the best way to ensure a high-temp burn that renders any remaining residue incapable of being trafficked?

Our first thoughts are to experiment with a layer of bags on top of tires or shredded pieces of tires, then four or five wood pallets. Saturated with enought JP-8 to help keep the firing running hot, our guess is that the wet tar will be broken down enough and eventually vaporized, that it won't be viable as a drug base any longer.

Some of this stuff is currently expanding from the heat inside of the evidence ISO container we have, and bursting out of the bags. HHQ is going to relieve us of the current quantity on hand, but we need a solution for future interdictions.

And yes, once again I have come to the council to pose the oddest of queries.

John, (only half joking) why not hold a party for the village (where the stuff was found) kids and get them to eat it all. While doing this explain to daddy (the farmer) and mommy that you want to show them what effect this stuff they grow has on western kids.

I'm wondering why you destroy the stuff in tar form yet let the poppies grow in the fields. I would really welcome an explanation of the thinking behind that decision.

[Entropy]

I can't find any open-source technical information, but you might want to get in touch with the DEA rep in Afghanistan - they might provide you with an efficient, expedient an safe disposal procedure.

[jcustis]

Yeah...well, that's a delicate policy decision way above my paygrade and outside of my lane. The reasons vary, but primarily rest on the assumption that destroying the crop through eradication hurts the farmer so much that we stand to have him turn against us, and that interdiction along the distribution network is the preferred method.

These sort of decisions have been discussed in several threads elsewhere on the council.

[davidbfpo]

If the product / evidence is in a tar form, is there any local road construction or maintenance using tarmac? Add opium tar to the tarmac and roll into road surface, even pot holes; in a proportion that precludes recycling.

[William F. Owen]

If the product / evidence is in a tar form, is there any local road construction or maintenance using tarmac? Add opium tar to the tarmac and roll into road surface, even pot holes; in a proportion that precludes recycling.

Wow... I mean wow. I am really impressed. More genius. Leave it to coppers like Slapout and Davidbfpo to excel in this area. I'm making notes here!!

[JMA]

Yeah...well, that's a delicate policy decision way above my paygrade and outside of my lane. The reasons vary, but primarily rest on the assumption that destroying the crop through eradication hurts the farmer so much that we stand to have him turn against us, and that interdiction along the distribution network is the preferred method.

These sort of decisions have been discussed in several threads elsewhere on the council.

Well yea.

Memorise those threads so one day you can use them as material for a case study on one of the most stupid military decisions of the century.

As the man says: "The Taliban have become very reliant on the narco-economy. They are completely dependent on it." read more here

What do you call it when things are done that aid and abet the enemy?

[slapout9]

If the product / evidence is in a tar form, is there any local road construction or maintenance using tarmac? Add opium tar to the tarmac and roll into road surface, even pot holes; in a proportion that precludes recycling.

That will work. Roofing Tar or Pitch as the British say may also be a source of disposal. Don't know much about Afghan construction techniques or if they even use anything like that.

[William F. Owen]

Well yea.

Memorise those threads so one day you can use them as material for a case study on one of the most stupid military decisions of the century.

Well think about it.

I come from the threat-centric school of irregular warfare - but - Why do you want to hurt the population? Why turn the farmers against you? Why bring them into the fight. They just want to make money and are between a rock and hard place.

a.) Eradicating poppy is very labour intensive, and mostly useless.
b.) Makes far more sense to go after the manufacturing/re-sourcing side of the business. The farmers are sub-contractors.

[Bob's World]

If its a small amount found in a farmers home, (say 10 - 20 Kilos), just leave it. He has bills to pay.

If it is a vast quantity picked up at a Bazaar or on a truck heading out of country, then the farmer has already been paid and you only hurt all of the power brokers (Taliban, non-taliban, GIROA, etc) that all profit heavily from this multi-Billion dollar industry. In those cases (unless you are a small SOF team inserted on an Aerial VI mission), you should have the resources to haul it off and dispose of it effectively. The key is to target this stuff at the right point in the pipeline, and to have a plan for success.

Similar dramas for dealing with vast quantities of Ammonium Nitrate fertilizer. I've seen some farces of ineffectiveness when we attempt to destroy/burn it in place. What we really need is a place it can be hauled to, and then aerially delivered over the fields of those farmers who cooperate with GIROA. (Though for what its worth, even when massive amounts of this key raw material are captured there is no noticiable affect on the incidence of IEDs. You simply can't reduce IEDs by targeting raw material on the front end, or emplacers on the back end.)