Cops or Police in Counterinsurgency COIN

[Bill Moore]

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/201...ategy/#c006641

For some reason my post on "Obama needs a new strategy" posted as anonymous, but the jest of my response is that we need a new national defense strategy for AQ and like threats that seamlessly blends law enforcement, intelligence and special operations forces. All three would have to undergo a significant culture change, and all three need to.

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/u...ag/terrogence/

As for Attackerman's post that there wasn't sufficient intelligence available to connect the dots, that may be true, what also may be true is that all the intelligence available wasn't considered due to established procedures.

ABC News reports details on an Israeli intelligence company that monitored jihadist web discussions about plane bombing tactics weeks before the Detroit attack.

Most of the analysts at Terrogence are former Israeli intelligence operatives. From a converted chicken coop in a village in central Israel they monitor Islamic internet sites devoted to global jihad and terrorism. Their mission is to identify new and credible threats against western targets.

According to Terrogence founder Gadi Aviran the online discussion ran to 25 pages and continued until a critical posting in late November by a known extremist with a proven track record in explosives. This individual has been monitored for several years and is widely respected by participants in the forums. His posting in Arabic read:

“You can ignite a detonator using a medical capsule and put concentrated sulphuric acid into it, and then put it over the explosive materials.”

They believe the “medical capsule” mentioned in the post could easily refer to a syringe as used in the attack on North West Flight 253.

Law enforcement brings a critically important set of investigative skills to the fight, investigations that yield intelligence that frequently doesn't get into intelligence channels because it must be protected to ensure the case is not compromised prior to prosecution. The intelligence community is pretty impressive in what they can collect, but less so when determining what it means. Special operations forces obviously bring unique capabilities to act upon the intelligence unilaterally or in partnership with foreign partners if they're given the authority to neutralize the threat if it is beyond the scale of law enforcement to handle. There is much room for improvement on how we can better blend the capabilities of these great organizations to defeat terrorist and terrorist related threats.

[jmm99]

STP:

It's like Clemenza's (IIRC) line in the Godfather to the effect that every 10-15 years we have to go to mattresses. So, we now have to re-learn the lessons from Vietnamese Pacification (what worked and what didn't; and the whys for both).

Bill Moore:

Law enforcement brings a critically important set of investigative skills to the fight, investigations that yield intelligence that frequently doesn't get into intelligence channels because it must be protected to ensure the case is not compromised prior to prosecution. The intelligence community is pretty impressive in what they can collect, but less so when determining what it means. Special operations forces obviously bring unique capabilities to act upon the intelligence unilaterally or in partnership with foreign partners if they're given the authority to neutralize the threat if it is beyond the scale of law enforcement to handle. There is much room for improvement on how we can better blend the capabilities of these great organizations to defeat terrorist and terrorist related threats.

No argument as to the above (I think Slap will join us), as you know from what we've discussed publically and privately.

You know that, sooner or later, we are going to get into that "irrregular combatant" and "unconventional wafare" thread - setting out the "best practices" in a unified military-legal schema in the context of comtemporary realities.

Cheers

Mike

PS: yup, you have to wonder about that "Anonymous" (with whom I agreed). Maybe, you need to introduce yourself.

[slapout9]

No argument as to the above (I think Slap will join us), as you know from what we've discussed publically and privately.

Yep!

[slapout9]

For some reason my post on "Obama needs a new strategy" posted as anonymous, but the jest of my response is that we need a new national defense strategy for AQ and like threats that seamlessly blends law enforcement, intelligence and special operations forces. All three would have to undergo a significant culture change, and all three need to.

We must do this! I don't understand this whole argument about it's a LE problem or it's a Military problem or it's all Intelligence. It's all three and the only way to win is with all three......combined into one organization that becomes our Main Effort against Terrorist Organizations. Need to fire about half those temporary Political Appointees that couldn't even find and arrest their Grandmother much less a Terrorist..... let the Professionals do it. Pisses me off

Billy Jack would know what to do. His first movie "The Born Losers" was essentially CT-Counter Terrorism........Fight Like Injuns!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLAKEM0bO2A

[Ken White]

And like Slap, I'm

However, the problem is that Bill's right:

defense strategy for AQ and like threats that seamlessly blends law enforcement, intelligence and special operations forces. All three would have to undergo a significant culture change, and all three need to.

and that's just the problem -- all three need major changes in culture -- but all three (cops at the Fed level) will fight any changes.

Does Billy Jack do Rice Bowls?

[jmm99]

from Slap
... combined into one organization that becomes our Main Effort against Terrorist Organizations.

cuz we have a model that combined "law enforcement, intelligence and special operations forces" (not always seamlessly, but they were good) - the KGB.

The issue would be how to create that organization and not end up with a KGB on the domestic front (except for chasing down TVNSAs who cross or attempt to cross the border). Have to give some thought to that.

Careful Slap - you might end up with a lot of lawyers (e.g., Putin and Ivanov).

Cheers

Mike

[slapout9]

cuz we have a model that combined "law enforcement, intelligence and special operations forces" (not always seamlessly, but they were good) - the KGB.

The UK had one during WW2 or close to it the SOE. Special Operations Executive.

[jmm99]

again violent agreement as to rice bowls - and I'll (this time) throw in venal politicians (elected and appointed; executive and legislative) as well.

Just as no one asked us about our plans (I posit some differences; maybe not) for Iraq and Astan ab initio; so too, here, what we might write up will most probably be ignored by the chattering classes.

The alternative is not to suggest anything that is anathema to the risk averse. At least, we can vent our frustrations by suggesting some things that we think are positive.

What do you think of a US KGB (or expanded SOE or OSS - neither had LE powers IIRC); and the limits that would have to be imposed on that 600 lb gorilla ? Posit no rice bowls and no venal politicos - and something akin to the original understanding of our Constitution.

The question is put to everyone, not just Ken.

Hey, and if you get into something akin to the OSS, you'll have lots of lawyers involved.

Regards

Mike

[slapout9]

We did have LE involved for awhile. The CIC-Counter Intelligence Corps had LE powers. I had a link to a declassified paper which describes their mission in detail but the link went bad will try again later.

Also for a short time we actually had an SF MP Company or Battalion, I think John T. Fishel knows about them.


Here is the Link. CIC In WW2 Mission and History.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/army/cic.pdf

[Stan]

We did have LE involved for awhile. The CIC-Counter Intelligence Corps had LE powers. I had a link to a declassified paper which describes their mission in detail but the link went bad will try again later.

Also for a short time we actually had an SF MP Company or Battalion, I think John T. Fishel knows about them.


Here is the Link. CIC In WW2 Mission and History.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/army/cic.pdf

Slap, we actually have LEOs involved to this day on MTTs (State partnership bilateral programs). While it's clear they are not specifically here for intel collection or training, the general thrust of these MTTs is intel gathering and analysis - Obtaining the big picture and takin' down the bad guys

I've participated in both the USG (as a terrorist) and the UK (as a humble student) courses held and hosted here.

Bill's got it right - There's much to be learned...

... a critically important set of investigative skills that yield intelligence that frequently doesn't get into intelligence channels

[jmm99]

for what it's worth:

Gorilla Group.jpg

This model is derived from how a large international law firm was organized (note horizontal flows); and how it formed operational teams for large matters - with some MAGTF input - to give credit where credit is due.

The model is more "stochastic" than "deterministic", as those terms are used by Steve's post here:

SWJ/SWC could be described as a digital community frequented by stakeholders in the nuts and bolts of America’s day-to-day efforts to make the world a better place. The demographics include experts and students of the myriad facets of security, economics, and governance from various lands. Pacing daily changes, ‘best of breed’ ideas, concepts, and Tactics Techniques and Procedures (TTP) are examined and debated in a non-hierarchal, open, Socratean manner. The community is an example of the results of democratization and globalization of information and knowledge, in that transactional costs associated with gathering and analyzing information are very low and flash mobs of stakeholders can form, as time and resources permit, for 24-hour analysis of interesting/vexing problems. The quality of output from the SWJ/SWC knowledge model varies (trending towards stochastic) as a factor of the educational, experiential, and motivational levels of the participants.

The USG could be described as a physical and digital community comprised, primarily, of paid stakeholders in the nuts and bolts of America’s day-to-day efforts to make the world a better place. It uses a more common, closed model of vertical and hierarchical integration (with high transaction costs) in which information gathering and analysis is, more often than not, primarily limited to in house personnel specialized in the myriad facets of security, economics, and governance (among many other topics). Standardized training, and educational experiences are part of an attempt to provide a regulated and dependable (trending towards deterministic) output from stakeholders.

Something to think about.