U.S. troops face Afghan enemy too young to kill

[subrosa]

The argument that child soldiers are not only a third world problem cannot be made by showing pictures of European children from a century ago. Those european kids also lived in "third world" conditions without economic alternatives. I guess it depends on what your definition of "third world" is.

When it comes to afghanistan, demographics plays a huge role. With an average life expectency around 40, they start an adult life at an early age. Not only in terms of fighting, but also working, farming, getting married early and having kids etc. 18-21 is a very arbitrary line to define adults anyways.

I have not verified the statistics from this Quote from this WSJ article but:

In 1979, the Russian army faced 2.5 million Afghan males at the traditional fighting ages of 15 to 29. Some 1.7 million of those Afghan males were second, third or fourth sons. They were surely loved by their parents but the family's property was inherited only by the oldest son. Younger sons had to struggle hard to find their places in society and—with decent jobs hard to find—could be easily recruited by militant groups. In 1979, 3.5 million Afghan boys still younger than 15 when the Soviet Union attacked were getting ready for just such a fight.

This endless supply of angry, ambitious young Afghan men never appeared on Russian radar. Yet it eventually forced them to give up the war and go home. Afghanistan was down to 13 million inhabitants.

In 2009, the situation is even more volatile. Today there are 4.2 million Afghan males aged 15 to 29 out of a total population of 33 million. Two and half million may conclude that violence offers their only chance for a successful future. Are these men on the radar screen of the 65.000 soldiers of NATO and the International Security Assistance Force? Is NATO/ISAF aware that 6.7 million Afghan boys under 15 are getting ready for battle? In Afghanistan, 45% of all males are younger than 15 versus 21% in the U.S., 18% in the U.K. and 14% in Germany.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...461719008.html

[Bob's World]

Another thing to consider is that the wise Afghan family diviersifies its investments just as the wise American family does.

So, while the American may have a percentage of his money in Stocks, and a percentage in Bonds; it is not uncommon to find an Afghan father who has one son in the Afghan National Police and another in the Taliban. This is a survival strategy, as one never knows who will prevail, and by having a son in both camps the family will likely weather the storm. If age requirements to be in the ANP require my oldest son go there, then I will by necessity send my younger son to the other program.

This is a country where one is either on the winning side, or one is totally and completely F'd. This is why I see Afghanistan as the easiest country in the world to conduct UW in; there is always about half the country totally excluded from participation in economic and political opportunity that is ready, willing and able to assist you in swinging the balance the other way.

The key to true stability in Afghanistan is to break down (slowly over time) this all or nothing dynamic. A bit off topic, but I suspect it feeds into the youth of some of those who are fighting the current regime.

[Polarbear1605]

I cannot resist weighing in here. I think it is time for Commander’s to start pushing back on their lawyers regarding ROEs and the Laws of War. They need to push back based on the individual Soldier and Marine’s right to self-defense. They also need to push back on the fact that the Laws of War state that military necessity is determined by the “field commander”. Another process that might teach lawyers about the Laws of War is to have them start charging for violations of the Laws of War instead of the Rules of Law.
I can’t wait for the responses on this one…it’s one of those spider fly thingys.

[JMA]

I cannot resist weighing in here. I think it is time for Commander’s to start pushing back on their lawyers regarding ROEs and the Laws of War. They need to push back based on the individual Soldier and Marine’s right to self-defense. They also need to push back on the fact that the Laws of War state that military necessity is determined by the “field commander”. Another process that might teach lawyers about the Laws of War is to have them start charging for violations of the Laws of War instead of the Rules of Law.
I can’t wait for the responses on this one…it’s one of those spider fly thingys.

One has to give the Taliban ten out of ten for seeing and exploiting the weaknesses in the ROE caused by the sensitivities towards negative media exposure. Don't blame the lawyers, blame the idiot generals that allowed them in in the first place.

[Polarbear1605]

one has to give the taliban ten out of ten for seeing and exploiting the weaknesses in the roe caused by the sensitivities towards negative media exposure. Don't blame the lawyers, blame the idiot generals that allowed them in in the first place.

hear, hear!

[JMA]

hear, hear!

Is it true what they say that the US have more lawyers in Afghanistan than helicopters?

[Bob's World]

Is it true what they say that the US have more lawyers in Afghanistan than helicopters?

...I'm not ready to laugh about it yet

(though for all my frustrations on this topic with said legad, over all she did a tremendous job and was a great lady (also a good inch taller than me and a trained boxer, so I was always sure to either mind my manners or at least pay attention to if I had room to take a quick step back or not)).

The fact is that the law is a mess for these things, and she was merely representing that mess.

Another example, I got into a discussion on my belief that we were better served by employing legal terms, such as "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" to drive engagements over the current vague "Positive ID" that is leading to so many inappropriate engagements under the current ROE and Tactical Directives. "Impossible" "That would imply law enforcement rather than war, and while we are authorized to wage war in Afghanistan, we are not authorized to conduct law enforcement." "We would have to leave if this were a law enforcement matter."


Really??? Perhaps that is something we should seriously consider. I am resolved that insurgency is a civil emergency and should be addressed as such, with local civil authorities in clear lead, and any military involvement being brought in under the same auspices that we do for any other MSCA event. HN military first, and any foreign military behind and subordinate to that of the HN.

"Sorry, we'd really like to stay and help you with this mess, but the only proper way to do that is illegal, so we'll be going now..."

[jmm99]

thought you'd find it hard to resist this topic.

I'd say look not only to generals, but to a confluence of politicians and generals who set the legal policy. The SJAs can influence it to some extent, but are still instruments of the national command policy.

Realistically, what could you and I do in Astan given the policies in place ? But, if the policy was to go back to FM 27-10 and implement its doctrines as written, I'd expect we could do more than just gnaw at ankles.

Best,

Mike

[Backwards Observer]

...it is not uncommon to find an Afghan father who has one son in the Afghan National Police and another in the Taliban. This is a survival strategy, as one never knows who will prevail, and by having a son in both camps the family will likely weather the storm.

Along similar lines, I heard a story about a family where one son took off to become a Kuomintang enforcer with the Green Gang in Shanghai. His younger brother subsequently left to join the Communists, mainly because he thought his older brother was a jerk.

Then the Japanese came and the family was doubly screwed.

[Ken White]

The argument that child soldiers are not only a third world problem cannot be made by showing pictures of European children from a century ago.

The pictures were to show two things. That not only the economically deprived rather anyone who is desperate will employ younger than the norm fighters and that said fighters were using rifles before there was an AK.

Consider the straits all the combatant nations were in a the time of the pictures. Desperately short of manpower...

The point was not that it was a "third world problem." There was absolutely no intent to pose the 'argument' you suggest. Indeed, IMO, it is not even a problem except in the minds of those who are foolishly determined to make it problematic. There's a large body of modern thought that holds those underage (whatever that means) should not or cannot be held to the same standard as 'adults.' That is insane. 'Child Soldiers' is, as I said, often a misnomer and 'young killer's is a far better appellation.

While the third world / economically deprived aspect is currently prevalent the pictures also illustrate that given the right (or wrong...) circumstances, the west likely will go back to doing what it has done before and what is done all over the world, using all available people power in a pinch.

The real issue and my only point in posting in this thread is that everyone should realize that regardless of genesis and / or age ethnicity, economic circumstances or whatever, they are still dangerous and still combatants. Period.

[subrosa]

kenwhite you said-

(1) Armed kids are not an African or third world only problem.

when i read that and then looked at the pictures- i thought that these pictures are not representative of the modern day western society. and that the pictures do not support the point above because if anything the kids look deprived (but cute). i guess the pictures were in reference to the kids with guns prior to the proliferation of ak47 comment someone made- my bad.

i totally agree with your main point that little boys to old men have been fighting perennially regardless of caste or creed, and specially agree that they should be treated like adults in a combat scenario.

[Harttm]

Much has been written on the use of child soldiers in combat. Most of the recent information available has been collected by International Organizations, GOs, NGOs, and the academic researchers. P.W. Singer published "Children at War," (2005) which goes into great detail on the subject from a military perspective. Singer provides some insight into dynamics associated with western militaries confronting child combatants. He does cite OP BARRAS, in which the estimates of West Side Boys casualties ranged from 25-150 killed in action. The highly trained British force had 70 wounded and one killed in action.

Singer identifies that western militaries are hesitant to engage children and offers some approaches to prepare for these inevitable engagements.

[JMA]

Much has been written on the use of child soldiers in combat. Most of the recent information available has been collected by International Organizations, GOs, NGOs, and the academic researchers. P.W. Singer published "Children at War," (2005) which goes into great detail on the subject from a military perspective. Singer provides some insight into dynamics associated with western militaries confronting child combatants. He does cite OP BARRAS, in which the estimates of West Side Boys casualties ranged from 25-150 killed in action. The highly trained British force had 70 wounded and one killed in action.

Singer identifies that western militaries are hesitant to engage children and offers some approaches to prepare for these inevitable engagements.

The Brit casualties were 1 KIA and 12 WIA. I don't believe that there was any hesitancy to engage the WSBs as the other camp across the river, Magbeni, was a free fire zone. The concern at Gberi Bana was for the hostages. It took 20 mins to secure the hostages yet the contact went on for 4 hours. The lesson learned from this op was how a first class op successful in the first 20 mins can drag on with resultant casualties due to the lack of initial and sustained airborne fire support (CAS).

25-150 kills on the WSBs side? Lets try to deconstruct that figure. It means 25 confirmed kills as evidenced by bodies found/seen/recovered. Where the 150 comes from is open to speculation.