U.S. troops face Afghan enemy too young to kill

[Ken White]

The ROE were drastically revised after that incident and child soldiers were treated as real ones by western militaries operating in Africa...

They'd better treat them all as real ones. A twelve year old can kill you just as dead as can his Father. Lot of foolish angst over 'child soldiers' for no good reason. A ten year old who throws a grenade in your lap as has happened here and there for a great many years may not be a Soldier in many senses but he's a fighter, he's your enemy even if he doesn't fully understand why, he's dangerous and deserves a shot as quickly as an adult.

Interesting takeaway from that and other such conflicts is that without the AK, we wouldn't have child soldiers at all, or at least far fewer of them.

Before the AK there were far fewer people in the world, so the second clause is correct. The first, not so much...

History shows that fighting children is far from a modern phenomena, there are just more kids and better communication. Nor are or were they all in Africa or 'third world' nations. The third pic is Polish, WW II, the second Russian, the White Army. Note the webbing on the WW I trench cleaning kid in the first one...

[40below]

History shows that fighting children is far from a modern phenomena, there are just more kids and better communication. Nor are or were they all in Africa or 'third world' nations. The third pic is Polish, WW II, the second Russian, the White Army. Note the webbing on the WW I trench cleaning kid in the first one...

My point was not that there have never been child soldiers, only that a malnourished 14-year-old can handle the recoil of a bullet hose like an AK (and with eight moving part on some models and not real picky about maintenance in the field) far better than from a western rifle where aim and upkeep counts, let alone the kick from a WWI Lee-Enfield or a similar battle rifle. I fired the latter in the Arctic when I was on presence patrols with the Canadian Rangers (they still use our WWI stock from stores because unlike plastic guns they don't shatter when you drop them at 50C below), and the average child soldier would get about one shot in his active military career before seeking treatment for a broken collarbone and a dislocated shoulder, maybe a broken jaw too.

[Ken White]

My point was not that there have never been child soldiers...and the average child soldier would get about one shot in his active military career before seeking treatment for a broken collarbone and a dislocated shoulder, maybe a broken jaw too.

but as a big bore (.30-06, slightly more potent than the .303 and not to mention that %$&* 12 gauge...) shooter at age 11, I do not agree. Not at all.

The Australian, British or Canadian Soldier in the third picture above may not be malnourished. he has the pre-war British pattern ammunition pouches for the .303.SMLE (the WW I Mk III, not your Ranger's WW II era No.4). The Poles and the Russians are probably malnourished. Note the Russian all have Nagants and the 7.62x54 is a contemporary of the .303. I posted two pictures showing .303 category weapons in the hands or likely so of 'child soldiers' and you come back and impute that weapon recoil would be a determining factor. Not a good argument, kids were padding their shoulders with rags a long time ago-- in the era of muzzle loaders...

While it is fact the AK enabled a proliferation of 'child soldiers,' for the reasons you cite in your response, my initial comment was not aimed primarily at refuting your perhaps unintentional overstatement. You said

"...without the AK, we wouldn't have child soldiers at all, or at least far fewer of them." (emphasis added /kw)

'None' initially then added the caveat 'or not as many.' I agreed on the not as many, just as a minor aside, really, disagreed on the none.

The comment by me -- and the pictures -- really was intended to make two important points. Thanks for allowing me to reiterate them:

(1) Armed kids are not an African or third world only problem.

(2) Whenever and wherever armed kids exist and attack, they are as dangerous as adults. Perhaps more so because many through a false sense of concern will not react as quickly to kill a child and they deserve no special consideration. None.

[William F. Owen]

but as a big bore (.30-06, slightly more potent than the .303 and not to mention that %$&* 12 gauge...) shooter at age 11, I do not agree. Not at all.

Me too, though it was SMLE No.4 and I was 13, but whole generations of British School Boys from 13-18 learnt to shoot on .303 until very recently.

[J Wolfsberger]

In Vegetius' essay on reforming the Legions, he discusses beginning the training of young men in the military arts as soon as they reach puberty. The concept of "child soldier" is a late 20th century invention. For most of human history, across all cultures, when humans entered puberty they were considered adults. For females, this meant marriage and children. For males, it meant farming, hunting and warfare.

Nonetheless, the issue here is first, reluctance on the part of Western troops to kill combatants the perceive as children, and second, the psychological problems resulting from the engagement (i.e. either killing them, or suffering casualties from reluctance or hesitation to kill them.).

[Bob's World]

This highlights one of the major problems with the tactical directives in Afghanistan: They placed illogical emphasis on Age and Gender over situational factors such as time, manner, place, activity.

A Coalition member engaging a young man such as described by Guy is likely to face challenges from higher HQ regardless of the activity engaged in.

One of my goals was to shift the focus from "CIVCAS" to criteria more practical. (All insurgents are, afterall, civilians) I actually got MG Carter, COM RC-South where LTC Guy Jones operates, to agree and he publicly took the position that his command would no longer use the term CIVCAS and instead use "Combatant" and "Non-Combatant." His LEGAD had a cow. Because the phrase civcas is what is written into the law, regardless of how illogical and wrongheaded it is on the ground, we had to use it. The lawyers won, and we went back to CIVCAS.

I tried to have a conversation with LEGAD on the topic and all she could do was stare at me like I had a horn growing out of my head and bluster about the terminology in various articles of international law, the terms they use, that must be adheared to.

Add this to my list:

If you don't understand insurgency, you can't do COIN;
If you don't understand insurgency, you can't legally advise a commander doing COIN either.


(Oh, and I suspect a rather large portion of those who fought in the American Civil War were in this 14-18 age range, and handled their .58 caliber rifles with ease and deadly skill; rode their cavalry mounts with the same agility and lack of fear they ride skateboards today; and generally were tremendously resilient and effective)

[slapout9]

Doesn't Infantry literally mean, Boy Soldier?!

[AdamG]

They'd better treat them all as real ones. A twelve year old can kill you just as dead as can his Father. Lot of foolish angst over 'child soldiers' for no good reason.

Just ask Law Enforcement types about lethal feral youths on the streets of urban America. Without moral compasses, you get "Lord of the Flies" and all that goes with it.

[Ken White]

Just ask Law Enforcement types about lethal feral youths on the streets of urban America. Without moral compasses, you get "Lord of the Flies" and all that goes with it.

you get Lord of the Flies and all that goes with it.

I've got two sons that are long time Cops, one on each coast, both in major urban areas. Their concern is the 'legal' system apparently has no moral compass.

Or much sense...

[jmm99]

virtual handshakes and salutes from me. Being a coastal cop (esp. in a major urban center) takes great fortitude and dedication. Or, else you have to be as dumb as a brick; but judging from their Old Man, that seems unlikely.

The civil and criminal justice system works better in the Heartland (its major urban centers excepted). I expect there is much greater direct accountability for judges, lawyers and police in smaller communities with lesser case loads.

-------------------------------
"Lord of the Flies" is an interesting book, which frustrated the hell out of me when I first read it in the late 1950s while in high school. My problems were with Ralphie Boy vice Jack. Ralph should have taken on Jack upfront, and if needed killed him. Ralph tried to protect the Piggies of his New World by playing nice all the way. That doesn't work in an environment ruled by the Laws of War.

And no, I wasn't a Piggy back then:

10thGrade.jpg

more like something of a cross between Ralph and Jack, I suppose. Both had good and bad features - and to some extent can stand as metaphors for the Rule of Law (Ralph) and the Laws of War (Jack).

Regards

Mike

[Ken White]

Or, else you have to be as dumb as a brick; but judging from their Old Man, that seems unlikely.

Actually, they're smarter and better lookin' than I am -- a not all that difficult pair of feats...

The civil and criminal justice system works better in the Heartland (its major urban centers excepted). I expect there is much greater direct accountability for judges, lawyers and police in smaller communities with lesser case loads.

I'm sure you're correct. Having watched the processes actually work in rural Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina and Virginia among other places, I continue to be totally befuddled by some case reports from all our larger cities...

The west coaster son's three year long ordeal defending what was then his Dog Section from a local Activist's flawed and failed legal assault a few years ago over the fleeing felon who got bitten in the posterior was at least a hilarious break in otherwise sad stories.

Beyond fuddlement was the east coast kid's breaking his Asp in an arrest for the third time by him of one individual with a record of seven arrests and convictions for violent acts. Now eight. He's already back on the street...

The jails are overfull, they say...

[JMA]

Actually, they're smarter and better lookin' than I am -- a not all that difficult pair of feats...I'm sure you're correct. Having watched the processes actually work in rural Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina and Virginia among other places, I continue to be totally befuddled by some case reports from all our larger cities...

The west coaster son's three year long ordeal defending what was then his Dog Section from a local Activist's flawed and failed legal assault a few years ago over the fleeing felon who got bitten in the posterior was at least a hilarious break in otherwise sad stories.

Beyond fuddlement was the east coast kid's breaking his Asp in an arrest for the third time by him of one individual with a record of seven arrests and convictions for violent acts. Now eight. He's already back on the street...

The jails are overfull, they say...

Tell me Ken, is it really true that the police in LA are not able to handle the gangs?

[Ken White]

Tell me Ken, is it really true that the police in LA are not able to handle the gangs?

Haven't been to LA in 60 years. No desire to go back. Ugly town. LA Cops then were really pretty good, though and apparently still are better than most. Very small force for the size of the population, too...

However, I suspect that like all Police everywhere, they are not really able to "handle the gangs." If gangs were not a problem worldwide, there would be far fewer police. LINK, LINK, LINK, LINK.

You ask really weird questions but I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere, no matter how obscure it may be.