WWI and the AEF

[Seabee]

Pershing was an arrogant man whose one acievement was keeping the AEF together.

He believed that the American male was superior to his European counterpart because a sense of adventure running strong in their families genes had drawn them to the North American frontiers !

He believed that inborn marksmanship and fieldcraft combined with an American knowledge of open warfare is what would split the German front wide open.

He, and his higher command poo-pooed effiminate European things like artillery and machine guns...

The AEF could have learned from the mistakes of the French and British without having to make them themselves... but did not.

The 2nd Divisions actions at Belleau Wood, then a few weeks later at the village of Vaux showed how succesful a division could be when they shook of Pershings arrogance and incorporated tactics used by their allies....

http://www.kaiserscross.com/257543/284222.html


Another red herring is the losses suffered by the US troops attached to other armies/divisions....

[Rifleman]

The 2nd Divisions actions at Belleau Wood, then a few weeks later at the village of Vaux showed how succesful a division could be when they shook of Pershings arrogance and incorporated tactics used by their allies....

I feel it's only fair to point out the 2nd Divison was a combined Army/USMC divison and was commanded by USMC MG John Lejune, who had seen a lot of small war expeditionary duty before WWI.

[Seabee]

I feel it's only fair to point out the 2nd Divison was a combined Army/USMC divison and was commanded by USMC MG John Lejune, who had seen a lot of small war expeditionary duty before WWI.

Indeed, but there were two phases in the action I mention.... Pershings way... then the enlightened way...

http://www.kaiserscross.com/257543/284222.html

best
Chris

[USMC-03]

Fantastic subject gentlemen; I'm reading all posts with enthousiasm!

Seabee, please expand on your objections to the "Pershing way" and advocacy of the "enlightened way." What are the elements of each? I have read the article you linked to and would be very interested in learning more about what your outlook is and how you formed your position.

And just in the intrest of accuracy, as I recall the 2nd ID was commanded by Army MG Harbord at the time of Belleau Wood; USMC MG Lejune assumed command later when Harbord was transfered to an AEF staff billet.

[Pete]

Generally the Pershing way was a suicidal frontal assault without much artillery and the so-called enlightened way was to use terrain, fire and maneuver to pry the enemy from his positions. The celebrated marksmanship skills of Marines and Army guys at the time were probably exaggerations that gratified the gun nuts back in the States, but even if only 10 or 15 percent of riflemen put their long-range marksmanship training into practice the results would have been deadly.

[Pete]

It might be unfair to Pershing to say he wanted suicidal frontal assaults; he did however want objectives to be secured and was impatient when they were not. I've read of battalions that were pinned down and had lost cohesion being told by higher headquarters to keep pounding away anyway. That's when good leaders come up with other ways to accomplish the mission, whether they are part of doctrine or not.

[Bob's World]

It might be unfair to Pershing to say he wanted suicidal frontal assaults; he did however want objectives to be secured and was impatient when they were not. I've read of battalions that were pinned down and had lost cohesion being told by higher headquarters to keep pounding away anyway. That's when good leaders come up with other ways to accomplish the mission, whether they are part of doctrine or not.

You could replace Pershing with Bradley and not be far off. We did not evolve much at the opertional level between the wars.