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Thread: Is This The End of The Carrier

  1. #41
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfred_the_Great View Post
    The argument of policy vs platform is instructive, would you care to outline which policies should/could/ought be scrapped? I know what I would propose for the UK, but don't really have a handle on the US internal politics. Moreover, isn't policy a Civilian function, into which sticking a Service Oar is loaded with problems?
    That is really the problem and I would say it doesn't matter. As Ken White would say we don't do Grand Strategy or Policy by design it is whatever administration in power says it is. It is almost impossible to have a rational policy discussion with a 2 party system because each party wants to and has to claim credit for better policies so they can win elections.

    This creates a constant state of confusion for war planners. Which is why they usually stay out of policy recommendations and focus on platforms, which in their defense is about the best they can do. And if they focus on flexible platforms that could be of value to any administration regardless of whether they are liberal or conservative that is about the best that they can do.

    Aircraft Carriers despite their vulnerabilities are flexible platforms which is why I doubt they will go away, nor will the Marine Amphibious assault capability for the same reason. So how do you survive a high threat envronment.....build a lot of them and disperse them to ensure that they can survive the initial and sustained missile attack until they can counter-attack and destroy the opposing sides platforms.

    One of the early 60's jump jet carrier platforms was literally a single aircraft carrier....one jet per carrier and disperse over a wide area until it they able to concentrate at the landing site. The problem is solvable because it has already been solved.
    Last edited by slapout9; 08-14-2010 at 03:43 PM. Reason: stuff

  2. #42
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    Default Warning: Pet idea offered

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    in terms of flexible deployment of airpower I really don't see a substitute for a carrier. Land-based aircraft are too short-legged, and a competent adversary would have an easier time knocking down a tanker (no refueling, no long legs) or AWACS (no eyes, no targets) than it would hitting a CVBG.
    With the risk of Chinese missiles landing on Guam, Japan, and Korea, agree it seems unlikely you would want to park multiple fighters and tankers there. But with a strong Pacific aerial refueling capability out of Alaska, Australia, Hawaii, and Diego Garcia couldn't you simply employ greater carrier and fighter stand-off farther from Taiwan making the search for and attack of carriers and parked fighters more difficult?

    Given AirSea Battle and the tyranny of Pacific distances, you would think an aerial tanker with greater long distance legs while retaining substantial fuel off-loading capability should have a major advantage. Yet that isn't a weighted priority in the requirements and no advantage is offered for additional capacity unless an unlikely price threshold is reached. That would seem to support COL Jones observation that programs were considered prior to policies.

    Also in support of COL Jones observation, wonder why the QDR did not support a new long range bomber given Pacific distances? Were budgetary and F-35 considerations superseding the missile threat? Or was there an unspoken reluctance to fund another manned bomber when unmanned or optionally-manned might do? Yet a recent GAO report indicates little current service willingness to substitute unmanned aircraft to fill the "fighter gap."

    Carriers also don't face as many overflight restrictions as land-based forces do, and Entropy is spot-on when it comes to airfields.
    Pet theory time. Wouldn't a series of built-up island bases near the Tropic of Cancer (Midway, Wake, Northern Mariannas) effectively augment carriers in the Pacific? Wake Island for instance is already U.S. owned and 2/3rd of the way to Guam and would support aircraft heading toward Guam, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea while outside the range of more common Chinese missiles.

    Agree that a threat exists to tankers so why not launch Navy/Marine F/A-18s and F-35 from these island bases to link up with and protect tankers and help them via buddy refueling of other aircraft. Couldn't these or other F/A-18E/F also carry anti-ballistic missiles to protect the island? Their AESA radars and AMRAAM would already support against cruise missiles and fighter-bomber attacks.

    A pair of KC-X would fly from farther bases to refueling track/anchor locations near the islands where they would top off a pair of locally launching F/A-18E/F escorts to enable near-simultaneous refueling of 3-4 en route fighters. Navy F/A-18E/F already support hose and drogue buddy refueling and a small boom could be added to some F/A-18E/F to refuel USAF F-22, F-35A, and F-15E/F-16/A-10 as well.

    Island-based catapults could be covered with concrete shelters to assure protected take-off. Use of underground shelters and elevators could protect aicraft parking. EW would jam Chinese GPS satellites. Land and nearby sea-based air defense systems would target inbound cruise missiles and ASBMs. Multi-spectral smoke generation could further obscure the island airfields during missile attacks to prevent IR and radar-targeting. Inertial nav would have a less accurate CEP given greater distances from launch location.

    Stationing of Army and Marine forces and their equipment on such island bases could also be in position to protect the island from commandos and board JHSVs to transfer to forward theaters escorted by LCS. Troops could rotate to these islands from Hawaii, Alaska, Washington state and San Diego to preclude island fever.

    Navy and Marine F/A-18E/F and F-35s could also rotate their from their east and west coast bases to further disperse squadrons not aboard docked carriers. That would place more Navy/Marine F/A-18E/F and F-35s closer to station even when carriers are not or are en route.

    So with the couple of Navy experts on hand, couldn't the same sorts of systems protecting carriers also protect land bases located farther than Guam? You can't sink an island with torpedos or missiles/bombs, and ASBM "flechettes" or submunitions designed to damage a carrier deck would have more difficulty with hefty concrete shelters and runways that could be rapidly repaired. You can't protect a 10,000' runway but possibly could safeguard a concrete land-based catapult and hook line. And if/when those systems were being repaired, Harriers and F-35B could still function.

    I'll add that loaded C-17s, airborne troops, and special ops C-130s also could launch from these island's regular runways...moved their when warnings and indications indicated a threat. If I was really bold, would suggest that CV-22 and MV-22 could centrally locate from these bases to link up with Special Ops and Marine amphibious ships that normally could carry only helicopters. Use the extra MV-22 range to reach the ships from afar to pick up other troops remaining not initially lifted by on board helicopters.

  3. #43
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Pet theory time. Wouldn't a series of built-up island bases near the Tropic of Cancer (Midway, Wake, Northern Mariannas) effectively augment carriers in the Pacific? Wake Island for instance is already U.S. owned and 2/3rd of the way to Guam and would support aircraft heading toward Guam, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea while outside the range of more common Chinese missiles.

    Stationing of Army and Marine forces and their equipment on such island bases could also be in position to protect the island from commandos and board JHSVs to transfer to forward theaters escorted by LCS. Troops could rotate to these islands from Hawaii, Alaska, Washington state and San Diego to preclude island fever.


    I'll add that loaded C-17s, airborne troops, and special ops C-130s also could launch from these island's regular runways...moved their when warnings and indications indicated a threat. If I was really bold, would suggest that CV-22 and MV-22 could centrally locate from these bases to link up with Special Ops and Marine amphibious ships that normally could carry only helicopters. Use the extra MV-22 range to reach the ships from afar to pick up other troops remaining not initially lifted by on board helicopters.
    Old theory but a good one, what you are talking about was the basis of the by Warden "The Air Campaign" and he talks a great deal about how Marine and Navy forces were used in WW2 to seize the Air Fields in order to be able to strike Japan, the flip side is it can also be used to defend against attacks to.

    This is why most people don't understand what he (Warden) means when he talks about Air Power Strategies, there will be a lot of other forces involved in a good Air Power Startegy. But if you loose Air Superiorty(includes missiles)....you will likely loose the War.

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    "AEGIS isn't against cruise missiles, it's against anti-ship missiles."

    Technically, most antiship missiles are ALSO cruise missiles, a cruise missile being one that has a jet engine rather than a rocket motor. I thought I was clear discussing 'ASCM's (anti-ship cruise missiles) when talking about defending aircraft carriers and brought up cruise missiles only in the context of the idea that firing a ballistic missile could be detered by thereat of a nuclear response, since you did not know if iit was nuclear or not. Such an argument would mean you could not use a tomahawk (or other nuclear-capable, cruise missile) near a nuclear power becasue it *might* have a nuke and *might* change course to attack them and there they would have to treat it like a nuclear attack.

    "Given that a CVN will be doing in the order of 30kt during flight deck operations, then it will be upto 5 miles away from the original position at missile launch, making inertially guided weapons (without an ability to carry to terminal guidance within an area of say 10nm radius) useless. "

    Previously Granted. We are not talking about purely ballistic missiles when talking about the DF-21 anti-ship varient. It is a ballistic missile that has the payload to carry 1 (or more) guided warheads. It is those warheads that cause all the problem for the Carrier, since the CV can't get out of their footprint, assuming they used a seeker with similar capability to ASCM seekers (which ships can't run out of the footprint of, when properly targeted).

    "Defence against ASM is nothing new, and lots of effort has gone into it."

    Yes, as I previuously argued, Aegis can be granted to have "solved" the high speed diving cruise missile problem of the 70s and 80s as evidenced by the fact nobody is producing them anymore. The ASM manufactuers realize that the way to combat AEGIS (and like systems) is by minimizing thee time it has to respond. By going as low as you can as fast as can, from as close as you can, you minimize the nimber and Pk of Aegis shots at your missiles. That is simple geometry. A Mach 2 missile takes ~30 seconds to get in from the horizon. That is an awfully short time to make a decision, designate a trget, deconflict with other ships and take the shot. That assumes verybody running around in "robocruiser" mode near a carrier conducting flight ops - a tough sell to the Air Boss. You better have Cooperative Engagement Capability annd a brandy new Hawkeye AEW bird up to attack beyond the horizon have a decent chance. If there are 20 or 30 incoming missiles, this puts even CEC in a royal hurt locker.

    Defense against ASM's in general is nothing new. Defense against large salvoes of supersonic sea skimming missiles is. Combine that threat with ASBMs and you have a shift on the order of the one fromm attacking with guns, to attacking with planes. Without the right defenses, you are toast. And you better hope there is not a submarine around to lob a few torpedoes into the mix...

    "Defence against long range targetting is equally practiced"

    There is "long range targeting" practiced by opposing ships, and then there is national level targeting via "national technical means". We indeed do have good doctrine (and practice it) against an ennemy Surface Action Group trying to target you from over the horizon. That is a totally different problem from the one posed by the integration of over the horizon rader, space, and other stuff and you have a totally different problem that there is not much you can do to stop short of attacking either the adversaries territroy, or getting into a space fight that is highly escalatory as different countries have different interpretations of what consititutes "Strategic warning" capabilities.

    "As for the rest of it, it's all Naval Warfare; nothing can be guaranteed, but I don't think anyone, least of all the Chinese, are in the position to take advantage of it within the next 10 - 15 years. Your own sources are incredibly circumspect, with no positive statements and lots of hedging."

    Agreed in general. If you look back at the recent Chinnese rate of technical development, 5 years ago the notion of an anti-ship ballistic missile was roundly poo-pooed as barely even possible. Now its acknowledged they have demonstrated one. Add targeting that doees not rely on the survivability of naval platforms, and highly resilient communications networks, and you have a significant new threat.

    My argument has not been that surface ships are today obsolete. Its that there is technology currently available that threatens the current U.S. CSG in ways that it currently has a very difficult time defending against. I'm not saying that any given country has fully exploited that capability, but at this point it is purely a matter of expense and effort to do so. The only response we have with our current CSG (and land bases as well) is a magazine arms race that we are on the more inefficient side of (baring a major breakthrough in high energy weapons).

    When the enemy has the capability to place your capability to project airpower (from Carriers or landbases) becasue he has a weposn that outranges your aircraft, and requires several defensive weapons per target, you are on the inefficeint side of an arms race that we do not have the money to win.

    On the policy side, why is it that we feel the only way to "keep China in its box" is to be able "dominate" China's back yard. IF the CHinese whhere selling SU-30s in large numbers to Cuba and sailing CSGs off our ports arguing that they consider it destabilizing for us to have the ability to deny access to say, the Carribean and the western Atkantic, would we just say "Sure China, we understand, we will just trust you to defend shipping in the Carribean." I don't think so.

    If what we really want is to prevent China from a land grab, then all we need is the capability to similarly deny access - NOT to establish our own "dominance". Our policy is that we expect China to trust us to be the policeman on the beat in here backyard, becasue we don't trust them. They now have much of the capability they need, and simply demonstrate the will to build up the capacity.

    We do not have teh money to maintain the Navy we have, let alone to buy the ships we say we want ((e.g. LCS is now 3 times more expensive than planned, yet there is no more money in the pot that is supposed to buy 55. Which means we can only afford to build 15 (a third minus some economy of scale loss), Even if we get 18 that is a drop in the bucket of what we need to execute a dispersal strategy (not to mention that LCS is not the right ship to do that anyway...).

    The US 30 year shipbuilding plan is a travesty: http://www.militarytimes.com/static/...ipbuilding.pdf
    It assumes cost savings in programs that are TREMENDOUSLY over budget.

    My warning is that even if you build all the ships we say we want, the eriting is already on the wall that they are nott the ships we are going to need in 5 or 10 years, let alone 25-30.
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  5. #45
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    Link to 2008 presentation by Col. Warden on Long Range Strategy and why we have problems with it and what we might be able to do.


    http://www.ndu.edu/inss/symposia/joi...Warden-PPT.pdf

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    Default Fascinating discussion...but lots of reasons would preclude a Chinese attack

    If you look back at the recent Chinnese rate of technical development, 5 years ago the notion of an anti-ship ballistic missile was roundly poo-pooed as barely even possible. Now its acknowledged they have demonstrated one. Add targeting that doees not rely on the survivability of naval platforms, and highly resilient communications networks, and you have a significant new threat.
    Guess when I see the Chinese having trouble backward engineering old tech Russian and Israeli fighters and not building any modern cars, etc., it is difficult to believe they have worked out all the bugs in the over-the-horizon radar, satellite sensors, sensors for the ASBM and C2 to orchestrate a massive salvo attack...any one of which when degraded would make for an ineffective attack.

    And given that attacking one of our carriers with 5,000+ on board would be comparable to 9/11...certainly there would be expectation that attack of their mainland was about to follow...sans nukes of course.

    Thought we had these 4 old nuke subs we now use for Tomahawks, lots of B-52 and B-2, JASSM-ER, and Vertical launch cells on all sorts of surface vessels that could carry our own future attack missiles.

    Then there is the whole cut-off-their-oil, bomb their nodes (no commuter rails/no manufacturing), lost sales to Walmart, and lost bond value conundrum that makes both attack of Taiwan and our carriers hardly worth their resultant "gains."

    So for every other threat out there, seems like a carrier battle group and our surface fleet is fully up to task. At least having island land bases would simulate having other carrier battle groups in an area when the CVN are sitting in port during a surprise attack of South Korea...and hopefully our ports are not targeted with 3 carriers parked there!

    And if the Chinese did attack...they would run out of missiles and oil long before we ran out of resolve and 5th gen attack aircraft.

    Heh Slapout, your supposed to help me push the EADS product that would be made partially in Alabama...

  7. #47
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Heh Slapout, your supposed to help me push the EADS product that would be made partially in Alabama...
    I know, we already won 2 competitions fair and square and they still want give us the contract.

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    PV - I suspect we're approaching violent agreement re the ASM vs surface ship discussion. I hadn't hoisted in that the DF21 had MIRVs (for use of a better word!).

    As for the rest of the China stuff, I'm going to pull the parochial card - frankly the RN would be next to useless in a half decent conflict in the South China Sea! I would worry about the $801 Bn of your national debt held by the Chinese before we start chucking missiles around!

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    Council Member pvebber's Avatar
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    "Link to 2008 presentation by Col. Warden on Long Range Strategy and why we have problems with it and what we might be able to do."

    We have had "naval dominance" for so long that we have had the luxury of thinking that we did not have to pay attention to operational art.

    The other implication of the "ascendency of offense" in naval operations is that the loss of dominance means that we are far more vulnerable to, and require to pay far more attention to our own operational art at sea.

    "I would worry about the $801 Bn of your national debt held by the Chinese before we start chucking missiles around!"

    Another reason why I find the CSBA solution of threatening the Chinese with massive conventional strikes if they decided to employ their area denial capability, while neglecting to consider anything the Chinese migh do outside the Western Pacific theater as naieve at best. AS COle points out, the escalation to a major war with China would be devastating to both sides (and the world economy) so using escalation as a means of intimidation is pretty much a dead -end against what would likley be a VERY measured creeping incrementalism of Chinese influence.

    This will be interesting to watch play out ofver the next several years. It is the first test to the "Mare Nostrum" writ large the US Navy has enjoyed and whether we will bite at an arms race we are on the wrong side of, or recalibrate our policy to recognize that we need only have effective sea-denial capability of or own to inhibit a potential "Greater East-Asian Co-prosperity Sphere Redux". The elephant in the room is what our arms sales and previous CSG use imply about what CSGs do in the Western Pacific - provide a deterrent to Chinese military moves against Taiwan - something about as likely as a Chinese surprise attack against Pearl Harbor.

    Remove the need for CSGs to defend Taiwan, and need for "dominance" can be greatly relaxed.

    That still leaves a 30-year shipbuilding plan aimed at maintining a fleet desogned to fight the 80s Maritime Strategy of taking the maritime fight to the North Cape while maintaining dominance of North atlantic and GIUK gap. That is the fight the Aegis based CSG is desinged for.

    That is not what the new Maritime Strategy calls for - though it can be pressed into service in sokme places to provide the "Credible combat power" part. We have yet to come to grips with the "mission-tailored, globally distributed" part.
    Last edited by pvebber; 08-16-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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    Default Devil’s in the details...

    Chinese ASBM development: Knowns and Unknowns, Jamestown Foundation, China Brief, Vol. 9, No. 13, 24th June, 2009

    Yet how do Chinese experts envision the “kill chain”— the sequence of events that must occur for a missile to successfully engage and destroy or disable its target (e.g. an aircraft carrier)—beyond the five steps that they commonly list: 1) detection, 2) tracking, 3) penetration of target defences, 4) hitting a moving target, and 5) causing sufficient damage? A single broken link would render an attack incomplete, and hence ineffective. [...]

    While locating an aircraft carrier has been likened to finding a needle in a haystack, this particular needle has a large radar cross section, emits radio waves, and is surrounded by airplanes. Active radar is the most likely ASBM sensor, since its signals can penetrate through clouds. Simply looking for the biggest reflection will tend to locate the largest ship as a target, and the largest ship will usually be an aircraft carrier (if the pre-launch targeting was good).[...]

    How are sensors prioritized and coordinated? Which organization(s) control which sensors (e.g. OTH radar), and how are they used? Is there a risk of seams between services (e.g. Second Artillery, Navy, etc.)? What about problems with bureaucratic “stovepipes,” particularly during general wartime crisis management? How to overlap areas of “uncertainty” from different sensors, and thereby accomplish data/sensor fusion? How to accomplish bureaucratic “data fusion”—a task beyond even the most competent engineers? Finally, which authorities would need to be in the decision-making loop, and what are the time-to-launch implications?[...]

    According to its handbook, the Second Artillery is thinking seriously about at least five ways to use ASBMs against U.S. CSGs, at least at the conceptual level:

    • “Firepower harassment [strikes]” (huoli xirao) involve hitting carrier strike groups.

    • “Frontal firepower deterrence” (qianfang huoli shezu) involves firing intimidation salvos in front of a carrier strike group “to serve as a warning.”

    • “Flank firepower expulsion” (yice huoli qugan) combines interception of a carrier strike group by Chinese naval forces with intimidation salvos designed to direct it away from the areas where China feels most threatened.

    • “Concentrated fire assault” (jihuo tuji) involves striking the enemy’s core carrier as with a ‘heavy hammer.’

    • “Information assault” (xinxi gongji) entails attacking the carrier strike group’s command and control system electromagnetically to disable it.[...]

    Still, this leaves critical questions unanswered concerning how the PLA might envision the basing location, number, employment, and strategic effects of any ASBMs:

    Base of operations. Where would the ASBMs themselves be based? What would be the expected range from the target?

    Nature of arsenal. What would be the relative size of the ASBM inventory? Size might have implications for operational possibilities and willingness to expend ASBMs in conflict.

    Concept of operations. It is one thing to call for ASBM capabilities, but how would they be realized in practice? What would an ASBM firing doctrine look like, and what would be the objective? Target destruction or mission kill (the equivalent of ‘slashing the tires’ on carrier aircraft)? What to shoot at, and when? Would the PLA fire on a carrier if it knew the planes were off of it? Would it rely on a first strike? Would the PLA plan to fire one ASBM, several, or a large salvo? If a salvo, then some combination of saturation (many shots in the same space, to overload missile defence), precision (firing many shots in a pattern to compensate for locating error on the target and to get the CSG in the seeker window of at least one of the missiles), or both? What type of warhead: unitary, EMP, or sub-munitions? How might salvo attacks, or multi-axis attack coordination, be envisioned? Do Chinese planners think that the Second Artillery could handle the mission by itself, or would it be part of a high-low, time-on-target attack with both ASBMs and cruise missiles?

    Concept of deterrence. Deterrence would seem to be a clear purpose of any ASBM development, but what does one have to show to deter? PLA doctrinal publications mention firing ‘warning shots’ in front of carriers—how does the Second Artillery think the United States would respond? How would the United States know it was a warning shot and not just a miss? What if the United States did know and called China’s bluff? Finally, from a technical perspective, how to actually fire a warning shot and miss by an intentional margin (versus having the seeker home in on the actual target)? [...]

    From Chinese sources, it can be inferred that Chinese leaders seek not to attack the United States, but to deter it. They want to defend what they perceive to be their state’s core territorial interests and to ensure a stable environment for domestic economic development. If they develop an ASBM, they would likely hope that it could prevent U.S. projection of military power in ways that are inimical to China’s security interests, which appear to be expanding beyond the First Island Chain. Yet the strength of Chinese equities, combined with vital U.S. interests in East Asia, make ASBM development for this purpose a complex and risky proposition.
    An interesting anecdote; I did my undergraduate studies with a Chinese chap whose father was an officer with the 2nd Artillery. He had a flag hanging in his room...it was that of Imperial Germany (WWI), he was also a member of the university shooting club, he didn’t take the course on nuclear strategy (run, at that time, by Prof. Lawrence Freedman), but he did, IIRC, take the course on technology and war.

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    ArmsControlWonk has an excellent discussion by Geoff Forden on the technical challenges of hitting a CV with an ASBM.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


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    A scenario involving full-scale war with China might have to be prepared for, on the grounds that preparation for everything imaginable is necessary. It should be recalled, though, that this is an exceedingly unlikely event. China is a trade-dependent status quo power with enormous domestic economic vulnerabilities and has little if any motive to rock the boat. China's economy is inextricably linked to the dollar and the US economy. Those paying attention will know that CIC is in the process of buying up very large interests in US Real Estate funds... hardly an incentive to war.

    I'd guess that the most likely deployment of this missile is not against an aircraft carrier, but at a negotiating table: you sell thist to Taiwan, we sell that to Iran. In that sense, a powerful deterrent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    A scenario involving full-scale war with China might have to be prepared for, on the grounds that preparation for everything imaginable is necessary. It should be recalled, though, that this is an exceedingly unlikely event. China is a trade-dependent status quo power with enormous domestic economic vulnerabilities and has little if any motive to rock the boat. China's economy is inextricably linked to the dollar and the US economy. Those paying attention will know that CIC is in the process of buying up very large interests in US Real Estate funds... hardly an incentive to war.
    Respectfully,

    exactly the same arguments were made before the Great War/World War I, didn't stop them though, and it that time, the economic dependency of the European powers was greater than that of China (actually, the US is more dependat upon China than the other way around).

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    Some really great food for thought on this thread. Here are a couple more links I think might be illuminating:

    Andrew Erickson, over at the Naval War College is one of the leading open source chinese language experts on the topic, his Blog:

    http://www.andrewerickson.com/2010/0...-missile-asbm/

    And recent USNI Proceedings article:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...e-game-changer

    Countered by Capt Tangredi in:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...-changer-china

    this one is subscriber only, but echoes many of hte comments here critical of "sky is falling" diatribe (A shot I accept across my own bow, and think hard about...) about the end of naval warfare as we know it...

    A broader exploration of carrier vulnerabilities beyond ASBMs:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...erability-myth

    And from one of my favorite naval critics Prof. Milan Vego in:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...ur-balance-sea

    And talking to getting beyond the CSG concept:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...t-was-question

    Thanks againt to he contributors to this thread!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tukhachevskii View Post
    exactly the same arguments were made before the Great War/World War I, didn't stop them though
    Actually the mercantilist/imperialist system prevailing at that time might almost have been specifically designed to produce a world war. In that environment a rising power such as China is today was effectively shut out of both markets and resource supplies, both of which were wrapped up in mercantile/colonial networks... they would have had to conquer to break into the big game. That's simply not the case now. Look at China's trade balance, why try to change the rules when you're winning the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tukhachevskii View Post
    actually, the US is more dependent upon China than the other way around
    Popular myth, but still a myth.

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    Well, I've been gone for a week and there's too much to reply to at this point, but it's interesting this thread is really more about China than the viability of the aircraft carrier. To me, that says something. It's one thing to suggest that carriers are vulnerable in some hypothetical future war with China (however likely that may be), but it's quite another to assert the "end of the carrier" is nigh.
    Supporting "time-limited, scope limited military actions" for 20 years.

  17. #57
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    I suspect that in a full scale war between technologically advanced major powers just about everything proximate enough to be relevant will be to some extent vulnerable. The challenges are to avoid that sort of war and, in the event that this is not possible, to manage the vulnerabilities effectively. Vulnerable doesn't necessarily mean useless or irrelevant.

    The possibility of such missiles being sold to potential antagonists elsewhere (Iran, basically) is as much a concern as an all-out war scenario, and as I said above I would expect the equipment to be deployed primarily as a bargaining chip in various negotiations.

    It would be legitimate to say that this development means a carrier might have increased vulnerability in certain scenarios, but to jump from there to "the carrier is finished" is over the top. The vulnerability is not absolute and there are still many scenarios where this threat is not a factor.

  18. #58
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    Default On Land-Based Air

    A little late responding due to issues getting to the site... but I feel like I need to make a point or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    Interesting discussion, but I have yet to see anyone propose realistic ways to allow land-based aircraft to stand in for the carrier. What happens when (not if) an "ally" denies overflight rights? Or refuses to sanction US operations from their airfields? Or shuts down/declines to renew a base lease?
    I won't advocate that land-based air replace the carrier... more on that later.

    As for your questions, you do the same thing we did when France denied overflight for El Dorado Canyon, or what we did in OEF early on... you fly your aircraft from wherever you can - in this case Midway/Guam/Diego Garcia. Then use AAR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    And what happens when the same determined adversary is perfectly willing to devote massive effort to shooting down tankers and/or AWACs?
    How is this any different than using those same forces to hit a carrier? If the enemy is willing to be completely suicidal, you are going to take some losses. just ask the USN at the end of World War II against Japan...

    One of the biggest threats to the carrier is still ASCMs fired by long range aviation. OBTW, if the E-2 is taken out, the ability to defend the CVBG is severely reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    Or someone hits a CONUS base that supports said HVAs? Land-based airpower is if anything more vulnerable than sea-based options because it is by nature static when it's not in use (you could also say that about a carrier in port, which is when I would contend that it's most vulnerable).
    True, but it's not like this is a new problem... hence the hardened aircraft shelters, camoflauging, and extensive work at rapid air base repair. Also, land bases are also defended by both aircraft and Patriots. We worked this problem back in the 80s during the Cold War, and the USAF continues to exercise operating the airfield under severe attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    F-22s might be stealthy, but the KC-10s and E-3s that support them certainly are not.
    True, but again they are easier to defend... since they can run away at about 20 times the speed the carrier can. A portion of your air forces are always going to be dedicated to HVAA defense.

    Allright, now to my real comments. You need land based air AND carrier aviation because they are reinforcing capabilities - with only one, you limit your options and make the enemy's job easier. With both, you complicate his problems severely.

    Additionally, if we are talking about preventing the Chinese from taking over their immediate neighbors, large portions of the air wing's aircraft are going to be looking for ships and landing craft, not fighting the air war or taking the fight to the mainland.

    Land based air is a huge help in air superiority, because as mentioned above, the Navy has to spend a lot of aircraft on other missions. Additionally, land based air is the only dedicated air superiority force left in the US military.

    Finally, land based air is currently the only force that can penetrate the Chinese IADs and attack the mainland.

    In the end, it is a team effort. Having the carrier means less tanker requirements (assuming it can get close enough to allow unrefueled missions) and high sortie rates. It doesn't allow you to penetrate an IADS as well, and it has some limitations based on the number of aircraft and the many missions they must accomplish. Land based air is more vulnerable, and requires more tankers, but also gives longer ranges and the ability to specialize to a greater degree. Both working together are the best solution. Neither, IMHO, is made obsolete by what is (thus far) a limited number of ballistic missiles and cruise missiles.

    That said, we need to start working this problem now. Not because anyone expects China to attack, but because our ability to deter Chinese action is what keeps every country in the Pacific (especially the ROK, Japan, Singapore) from getting in a full up arms race, or worse yet nuclear arms race, with China.

    V/R,

    Cliff

  19. #59
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Popular myth, but still a myth.
    Both would crash badly in wartime, but during peacetime the U.S. IS more dependent on the PR China than the other way around although not as drastically as some people portray it (China finances only a small fraction of the U.S. federal deficit directly).

    The rare earths problem is serious and the U.S.'s material standard of living would drop by several per cent if trade with China was cut.
    China could redirect its industrial output more into its own consumption - as it did to some degree since the beginning of the economic crisis - and it would miss investment goods imports the most.

  20. #60
    Council Member pvebber's Avatar
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    "You need land based air AND carrier aviation because they are reinforcing capabilities - with only one, you limit your options and make the enemy's job easier. With both, you complicate his problems severely."

    This is a key part of the problem with the Carrier Strike Group as currently operated by the Navy - i.e. its a "force package" that can be sent anytime, anywhere to take the fight to the enmey (an outgrowth of the old Maritime Strategy to send them into the teeth of the Soviets's Northern Flank).

    I think the crux of this thread so far is that, properly supported and with an integral role in a well thought out maritime campaign, CVs will be part of the U.S Fleet for the foreseeable future.

    However, the current Carrier Strike Group (doctrinally a CVN, 5 escorts, a Sub and a Supply ship) and even a Carier Strike Force (three CSGs operatating together) is currently at severe risk operating "alone and unafraid" inside the area denial envelope of a country like China.

    The combination of ultra-quiet submarines, long range SAMs on modern destroyers, the Klub missile family (now available in handy ISO container launch systems suitable for making Q-ships out of merchants), new long range torpedoes, and a decent inventory of 4th+ gen aircraft coordinated with satellite sensors and over the horizon radar, linked by a resilient C2 network, provide a substantial threat today.

    The addition of ASBMs in the near future has the potential to increase that risk to the point of unacceptability, requiring CSGs, at the least to be well integrated with land-based air (see the em[pahsis on Air-Sea Battle concepts) or potentially reconceoved as a more distributed collection of more, smaller ships.

    The involvemnt of discussing China leads from the fact that they are currently the only power with the capacity to threaten the CSG today (unless we are really dumb and do something like sail one into the Persian Gulf). The technical threat indeed needs to have a "likleyhood of use" piece attached to it, and those that argue that having a capability to destroy a CSG doesn't matter becasue doing so would cause an escalation dashing any beneifit such a strike miight have in the short term.

    This is a valid line of argument, but addresses the question of "even if there is technology that might kill a carrier, who would have the balls to use it, in what circumstances, and at what cost". That is a much harder question to answer!
    "All models are wrong, but some are useful"

    -George E.P. Box

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