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Thread: Back to Basics…The Lost Art of Basic Combat Fundamentals

  1. #41
    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    One of the guys in the photo Ken posted of the WWII G.I.s with the metal boat is wearing the First Army patch. I suspect that he was in an Echelons Above Corps engineer battalion that was specially equipped and tailored for the Rhine River crossing. Metal boats are probably not in any current TOEs, but it would be nice if there were a few of them stored somewhere in active theaters of operations.

    In 1975 my Dad was a member of a group that toured Europe studying urban transportation systems -- subways, rail, and busses. When they arrived in Germany they were welcomed with a luncheon near Bonn at a restaurant overlooking the Rhine. When the official German government greeter asked Dad whether he had ever been in Germany before, Dad pointed to the right and said he'd crossed the river at Remagen in 1945.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    The point Wilf made was that rubber boats can be sunk easily with small arms fire and that on jungle rivers, patrolling or moving to contact, where concealment of your opponent is not difficult, that is a likely occurrence. My added point was that we have craft better suited but they aren't readily available.
    Wilf & Ken are spot on w/the boat reference. I was in a unit called Small Craft Co. We were a Marine Infantry Rifle Company that specialized in Riverine Assault & various forms of Amphibious Raid.

    We used our Inflatable Zodiacs almost exclusively in open water. And for anything brown water we used our Hard Bottoms; the 12' Rigid Raider & the 38' Riverine Assault Craft for the reasons stated above.

    The Rigid Raider:


    The RAC: Our Gunboat Platform


    Together for a Combined Large Scale Assault in Paraguay:


    We eventually combined them & added the Surf Zone(Blue Water) capability of the Zodiac & made the SURC (Small Unit Riverine Craft). It can basically do all missions.
    Last edited by COMMAR; 08-29-2010 at 01:12 AM.

  3. #43
    Council Member Tracker275's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infanteer View Post
    Yup. Behind this there seems to be a mix of lessons forgot, luxary of facing mediocre opponents and no real urgency in winning (ie: we're more keen to see a conflict rolled into the institutional Army than see the Institutional Army bent to win a war).
    Infanteer,

    I have to say that you have two points that you stated that are absolutely correct to a “T”, as far as I’m concerned.

    #1
    Quote Originally Posted by Infanteer View Post
    “Behind this there seems to be a mix of lessons forgot, luxary of facing mediocre opponents and no real urgency in winning”
    It is ironic you say “mix of lessons forgot”, because the US Army has the Center for Lessons Learned (CALL), however I see at times that what is posted as a learning point is not sent down to the lowest level and implemented too often.

    Also, you are so correct in the fact that there seems to be no real urgency in winning. Instead of getting in, getting what we went there for, and getting the hell out…we end up staying and changing the end state goals that do not match the initial ones at all. While we change that, we build up bases, start moving in contractors, and even make sure Starbucks has a shop next to the Burger King. To me, that is occupying, and indicates we intend to stay their far longer than who we are supporting ultimately intended. This also only increases the outward appearance as an “occupier” vs. “liberator”.

    Frankly, I really don’t see how we as a Coalition Force that went into both Iraq and Afghanistan to root out terrorism that is responsible for attacking all of us in our own homelands….to the sudden shift to promoting a democratic form of government. Besides the fact that a democratic form of law goes completely against their religious belief, which the Sharia Law and the Koran are what they believe is a form of government. There is no democracy in Islam, there is only Sharia Law and their guide book, the Koran. Maybe this was an effort to promote us staying longer, I don’t know.

    What I do know is that the British tried to do the same thing in Iraq in 1920, and within a few years, they realized that the establishment of a Parliament, and a King, were a failure in the region.

    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Infanteer View Post
    We're more keen to see a conflict rolled into the institutional Army than see the Institutional Army bent to win a war.
    If you do not mind, I would like to use this quote from you, because It is again so true with what is going on right now. There is nothing I can elaborate on this anymore, because what you have stated says it all.

    Great points, and I’d like permission to use them in some of what I write.

  4. #44
    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    Default "To a 'T'"

    ... absolutely correct to a “T”, as far as I’m concerned.
    Keep your messages coming, Tracker, you have good input. The expressions "To a T" and "Screwed Up to a T" go back to the old technician grades during World War II. Back then it was a stripes-for-skills kind of thing, which offended the old-school NCOs. My Dad was an E3 technician, two stripes with a T, and later a E4 tech, three stripes and a T. As a courtesy they were called corporal and sergeant, and those ranks were the origin of the later Specialist grades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracker275 View Post
    Frankly, I really don’t see how we as a Coalition Force that went into both Iraq and Afghanistan to root out terrorism that is responsible for attacking all of us in our own homelands….to the sudden shift to promoting a democratic form of government. Besides the fact that a democratic form of law goes completely against their religious belief, which the Sharia Law and the Koran are what they believe is a form of government. There is no democracy in Islam, there is only Sharia Law and their guide book, the Koran. Maybe this was an effort to promote us staying longer, I don’t know.
    I agree that trying to achieve rapid, substantial democratization in Afghanistan or Iraq was always an unrealistic goal. That being said, relatively few Muslims believe that Islam and democracy are fundamentally incompatible. As Mark Tessler has argued on the basis of extensive public opinion polling in the region:

    Taken together, the findings presented in Tables 3-6 suggest that Islamic orientations and attachments have at most a very limited impact on views about democracy. With respect to personal religiosity, at least as measured by involvement in religious activities, there is not a single instance when this variable is related to attitudes toward democracy to a statistically significant degree. Further, there is only one instance when this variable is related to views about whether there are problems associated with democracy. This is the case in Egypt, where individuals with higher levels of involvement in religious activities are more likely than others to agree that democracy has drawbacks. The relationship is significant at the .05 level.

    As noted earlier, there is very little variance associated with personal piety, belief in God, and self-reported religiosity, and so these questions from the survey instrument have almost no explanatory power. All that can be said is that most people claim to be pious and most also have a favorable opinion of democracy, thus suggesting, in the aggregate, that there is no incompatibility between Islam and democracy. Support for democracy, in other words, is widespread in Arab societies where most citizens have strong Islamic attachments.
    Similarly, a survey of Egyptian opinion found no linkage between Muslim religiousity and support for democracy:



    Now, back to combat fundamentals...
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  6. #46
    Council Member Infanteer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracker275 View Post
    It is ironic you say “mix of lessons forgot”, because the US Army has the Center for Lessons Learned (CALL), however I see at times that what is posted as a learning point is not sent down to the lowest level and implemented too often.
    I see lessons learned coming out of theater line "don't use the same trail twice" and "combined arms will beat the enemy"; stuff that our fathers and grandfathers would say "well, yeah - you didn't know that?"

    Unfortunately, I think generations of soldiers are like generations of adolecences. No matter what lessons your parents learn, you make the same stupid mistakes and learn them yourselves. Is there any way around this?

    If you do not mind, I would like to use this quote from you, because It is again so true with what is going on right now. There is nothing I can elaborate on this anymore, because what you have stated says it all.

    Great points, and I’d like permission to use them in some of what I write.
    Give 'er. I lay no claim to the idea. If we were serious about winning, we would have put the right people, resources and organizations into it. Instead, its now a place for various parts of the institution to busy themselves with.

  7. #47
    Council Member Tracker275's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    I agree that trying to achieve rapid, substantial democratization in Afghanistan or Iraq was always an unrealistic goal. That being said, relatively few Muslims believe that Islam and democracy are fundamentally incompatible. As Mark Tessler has argued on the basis of extensive public opinion polling in the region...

    Similarly, a survey of Egyptian opinion found no linkage between Muslim religiousity and support for democracy...
    Rex,

    I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately, what comes about is the fact that even though the general populace has no problems with incorporating a democratic form of government into their daily life...The folks that call the shots, and plant the bombs are dedicated to that not happening.

    When you start looking at groups like Al-Qaeda, Ansar Al-Sunna, Naqshbandi Army, 1920's Revolutionary Group, Lebanese Hezbollah, Mujahadin, Hizb-I Islami Gulbuddin (HIG), Taliban, etc., etc....

    None of those groups will allow for democracy to take a foothold, because they are the ones with the power to influence the populace. Hence, why they are so able to fight the "super-powers" of the world, and become a formidible adversary. When you look at the fact that they are able to fight what the world considers a "super-power" and deadlock them in years of combat, it is definitely understandable why the push for democracy in those lands is a futile attempt. The local populace is caught in the middle, and in the end, we will leave like all of the foreign forces back to Alexander the Great before us. They will stick with what they know will keep them alive in the long run, regardless of what the potential good outcome may be if they decide to use what is presented to them.

    ....Well...just as you said, back to the the topic at hand...
    Last edited by Tracker275; 08-30-2010 at 09:14 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Keep your messages coming, Tracker, you have good input. The expressions "To a T" and "Screwed Up to a T" go back to the old technician grades during World War II. Back then it was a stripes-for-skills kind of thing, which offended the old-school NCOs. My Dad was an E3 technician, two stripes with a T, and later a E4 tech, three stripes and a T. As a courtesy they were called corporal and sergeant, and those ranks were the origin of the later Specialist grades.
    Not to stray off topic, but sometimes looking around...I think the old TSGT, and SPC4-9 are sometimes not a bad thing to bring back. Some folks are definitely more the specialist in their field, and some are the leaders. That would be something of interest to debate in another post...which area I don't know...,but definitely something to ponder in another post/thread outside of this one.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infanteer View Post
    I see lessons learned coming out of theater line "don't use the same trail twice" and "combined arms will beat the enemy"; stuff that our fathers and grandfathers would say "well, yeah - you didn't know that?"

    Unfortunately, I think generations of soldiers are like generations of adolecences. No matter what lessons your parents learn, you make the same stupid mistakes and learn them yourselves. Is there any way around this?
    This is perhaps the greatest potential weakness in any military. Those of us on and around the 60 year mark will have the ability to look onto the arrogance of youth (that we probably exhibited as well) and consider how to avoid the cycle of destructive repetition.

    I would say it is always about selection. The truly intelligent young officer/NCO will be open to learn from others (his peers) and from the past. I believe you need to watch the youngsters carefully with an eye on who during discussions/debates demonstrates that he knows why he got two ears and one mouth . Does he know how to listen? Or does he always have an answer or an opinion before the last speaker has finished? Arrogant people get soldiers killed. Get rid of them I say they are not worth the effort to try to salvage.

    That said, it is important that the lessons learned from the past are institutionalised (we have discussed this elsewhere an know that it does not happen, why?). That the past gets revisited regularly and the lessons debated, refined to current conditions, circumstances and TTPs. The non adherence to which should lead to disciplinary action. It is the creation of a culture of professionalism that is necessary IMHO and this peer pressure can't be left to what goes down in the barrack room but must be managed, certainly by senior NCOs and in certain instances by officers. In this regard it is essential that instructors have their lessons "sat in on" by senior NCOs and officers to make sure that TTPs are being complied with and the correct "experience" is being passed on and "know it all" instructors are kept on their toes.

    I guess we have all had instructors of various types across the spectrum. Those who are useless, those who diligently train according to the relevant pamphlet or manual, and those "smart alecs" who let it be known that the manual is BS and out of date and they and only they know the score. This is why supervision of instruction is so critical IMHO.

    It all starts with leadership and training. You select the wrong type of candidate as leader or an instructor and all you do is compound your problems. War and the deaths that war brings makes for too serious an situation to let idiots command and train troops.

    Try this: ask an infantry instructor what the training is on the positioning left-handed shots in a patrol formation. Watch the eyes and mouth. They will tell you whether you are talking to: a) and idiot, b) someone sincere, or c) a BS'er.
    Last edited by JMA; 08-30-2010 at 01:47 PM.

  10. #50
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Speaking of the lost art of combat fundamentals...

    Check the LINK. Sad...

    In fact that's beyond sad.

  11. #51
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    This looks indeed very, very bad. He might have a laser pointer on the side of the M4, though?

  12. #52
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    Default Nope, Ken,

    this photo (which ought not to have been released because of classification):

    ESP Aimpoint.jpg

    illustrates the latest in combat fundamentals, via ESP and telekinesis fron the Men Who Stare At Goats Project. It establishes a Vulcan Mindlock betwixt brain and target via a true line of sight right down the bore.

    What of parabolic ballistics, you say. Not material - telekinesis controls the bullet's flight along the path. The next step in the project is to integrate fire missions into the ESP-telekinesis system.

    One would think that Fuchs would have had all the info on this one.

    Cheers

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 09-03-2010 at 05:04 PM.

  13. #53
    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    They have a lot of snow in upper Michigan, which gives people living there lots of time to ponder things. It'll start falling in about three weeks.

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    Default Pete, looking out my window,

    today, it looks like a rain-snow mix - goose-hunting weather. Very true: lots of snow, lots of time to ponder.

    Give my regards to your cat Skindles.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    This looks indeed very, very bad. He might have a laser pointer on the side of the M4, though?
    I can only hope he is pointing out a target to AHs with a laser pointer/GCP/IZLID/something of that sort. However, since his finger is on the trigger, and his NVG is up, I doubt he is doing anything except spraying bullets, possibly aided by tracers.

  16. #56
    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    About 30 percent of dudes always fire blind over the berm, since War II, so this ain't nuthin' new. But it don't make it right, no way.

    Any NCO sayin' this is new is a lyin' mutha, and if he says I'm wrong I'll whup him and his daddy too ...

    ... and I be short fo' a MF, a double-digit midget, so you can't do nuthin' to me. Whatcha gonna do, throw me out of the Army?

  17. #57
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I'm not going to be too many muthas...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    About 30 percent of dudes always fire blind over the berm, since War II, so this ain't nuthin' new. But it don't make it right, no way.
    I disagree with your statement. That's a a very questionable statement with no basis in fact. Neither of us has seen every unit in combat siince WW II but in the ones I have seen I strongly doubt if as many if 2% of the folks did that or anything remotely like it. How about you?

    If you know any NCOs that would do that or tolerate anyone who did, you have my sympathy. Though I note the guy in the picture IS an NCO -- and is an FO, probably an Infantry mortar FO...

    The rest of your comment contributes little to anything. I also doubt you can whip my Daddy -- he died before you came in the Army.
    Last edited by Ken White; 09-04-2010 at 04:25 AM.

  18. #58
    Council Member Pete's Avatar
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    Ain't no use in lookin' down
    Ain't no Discharge on the ground
    Ain't no use in feelin' blue
    Jody's got your girlfriend too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    If you know any NCOs that would do that or tolerate anyone who did, you have my sympathy. Though I note the guy in the picture IS an NCO -- and is an FO, probably an Infantry mortar FO...
    If he's a forward observer, he is MOS 13F. The Army combined all their forward observers (the FA FOs, the IN BN Mortar FOs and the IN CO Mortar FOs) into MOS 13F in the mid-70s. Each maneuver company/troops had a Fire Support Team (FIST), with a LT, SSG and a couple of RTOs for the CO HQ, and, depending on unit type, an FO party of a SGT and an RTO for each platoon. Until 2004-2006 (the modular MTOEs), they were generally assigned to the HHB of the DS FA BN, and attached to the Infantry/Armor/Cavalry unit for deployments (there were some exceptions to this: they were organic, to the companies I believe, in the 75th RGR RGT; they belonged to either the HOWBATs or to the SQDN HHT in the ACRs; the 82nd generally, and some other places at certain times, put a BNs worth in each firing battery instead of consolidated in HHB; in Germany/Korea, where BNs lived on their own kasernes, they were often attached from the FA all the time; but overall, at least on the MTOE of most units, the FISTs belonged to the FA). Under the first iteration of the idea, from the Close Support Studies Group, they were supposed to belong to the manuever unit, but that changed somewhere before implementation. In the initial Stryker MTOEs, they were broken down, all the way to PLT level, in the maneuver unit. Beginning in 2004, with the modular unit MTOEs, the FISTs were put into a platoon in the HHC/HHT of the maneuver unit. In my experience, the maneuver units often made the attachment of the FISTs to their companies a full time thing. This significantly degraded their training in their MOS- the CO is supposed to have a LT and a SSG- in my last assignment, I was putting SPCs in charge of the CO FIST as soon as they made SGT, and since they often operated without the LT, they were only training on whatever the IN CO was doing, not in their MOS. However, even given lack of MOS skills, I would have thought that they would have been trained in basic small arms skills while assigned to the IN CO.

  20. #60
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for the update.

    Quote Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
    If he's a forward observer, he is MOS 13F...
    I think I knew that but had certainly forgotten. I'm old, sometimes I don't know what I forgot...

    "There are known knowns, unknown knowns..."

    Pete: I see your tacit admission at 0511 that you didn't know what you were talking about at 0243 and were trying to foist just another off kilter joke. Good man

    Not to worry, we're used to it and old or not, I do remember that chant -- as well as the one that starts with "If I die on the old Drop Zone..." and a bunch of others that also add nothing to discussion here.

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