The 33rd ID history is somewhere on Google books. You'll have to set up a Google account, which is free. Sign up for a free gmail email account, that's all it takes. Occasionally people outside of the U.S. have trouble viewing Google books -- it may be due to different countries' versions of copyright law.
The French taught us the G1, G2, G3 and G4 form of staff organization during WW I. Guys may recall that French army intelligence is called the Deuxieme Bureau.
Your wishee is my command, Wilfie;
but don't gnaw at the hand that feeds you - gnawing at little red riding hoods is OK.
Illinois in the World War: an illustrated history of the thirty ..., Volume 1 By States Publications Society (pp. i-396, 30mb pdf)
Illinois in the World War: an illustrated history of the thirty ..., Volume 2 By States Publications Society (pp. 397 et seq, 30mb pdf)
Illinois in the World War: This history of the 33rd division, A.E.F., by Frederick Louis Huidekoper (12mb pdf) (Appendices I-XVII).
The history of the 33rd division, A.E.F., by Frederick Louis Huidekoper (10mb pdf) (Appendices XIX-XLIII).
and a bonus (32 ID in WWI - our Mich-Wis division)
The 32nd Division in the World War, 1917-1919 By Wisconsin War History Commission, Michigan War History Commission (17mb pdf) (our local Upper Mich 107th Engineers, still active including our local sapper company, is rostered in the 32ID at p.30 pdf)
Co. C, 127th Infantry, in the World War: a story of the 32nd Division and a complete history of the part taken by Co. C., Paul W. Schmidt (12mb pdf)
Cheers
Mike
Cheers JMM
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
Thanks Mike. I had been racking my brain trying to find where I had seen this stuff on the net two years ago.
I think a mission type order (in a narrative format like the five-paragraph order) can create a lot of harmony and overcome a lot of seams...for a short period. The staffing process to keep it updated with FRAGOs or complete re-writes is not feasible these days to keep pace with the fight...or organizational entropy.This is one of the situations where a legacy of the First World War still works, the old five-paragraph field order. Too many staff people and modern commo means that a paper version of a modern OPLAN or OPORD with all of their appendices and tabs would require two deuce-and-a-halfs to deliver them to subordinate HQs.
The planning happening at the lowest levels is more critical than what happens higher up. The lower-level unit's order has a limited scope...its authority won't cover all the assets/units they need they need for support.
C2 lines are messy (arguably they always are). There has to be a better way of getting commander's intent out. Maybe FRAGOs should be replaced by blogs and tweets.
Last edited by Jobu; 10-14-2010 at 10:31 AM.
A FRAGO should resemble a Tweet...
If it's more than a quarter of a page in total, it's too long.
We are our own enemy
Somewhere from the late 80s to mid 90s we became the Russians.
We went from a commander-centric execution/end-state focused organization to a staff-focused planning centric one.
We even publish it two FM now as oppoed to one.
Orders and the "Orders Process" grew. So staffs grew, so more annexes could be written/published etc.
Brigade level and below should be able to crank-out an robust FRAGO in 2 hours or less. Companies should be able to issue their orders within an hour of getting theirs from higher and it should never be longer then 30 munites. Oral only at company level.
To keep pace with the fight, or the information overload that we have these days? When fax machines began showing up in the field in 1983 I could see that the floodgates were just starting to open up, information-wise.Originally Posted by Jobu
So how much of the staff problem is a result of the growth of peace-time staffs to handle increased admin requirements? It seems to me that peace-time staffs have gotten bigger even since I first came on active duty in late '91. All those people on peace-time staffs don't go away in war time. Commanders would be used to using them and they themselves would want to insert themselves into the process. It seems only natural that as peace-time staffs get bigger, war-time staffs will increase also.
“Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.”
Terry Pratchett
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks