Planning and the proverbial "Squirrel!"

[Jobu]

This is one of the situations where a legacy of the First World War still works, the old five-paragraph field order. Too many staff people and modern commo means that a paper version of a modern OPLAN or OPORD with all of their appendices and tabs would require two deuce-and-a-halfs to deliver them to subordinate HQs.

I think a mission type order (in a narrative format like the five-paragraph order) can create a lot of harmony and overcome a lot of seams...for a short period. The staffing process to keep it updated with FRAGOs or complete re-writes is not feasible these days to keep pace with the fight...or organizational entropy.

The planning happening at the lowest levels is more critical than what happens higher up. The lower-level unit's order has a limited scope...its authority won't cover all the assets/units they need they need for support.

C2 lines are messy (arguably they always are). There has to be a better way of getting commander's intent out. Maybe FRAGOs should be replaced by blogs and tweets .

[Ken White]

If it's more than a quarter of a page in total, it's too long.

[TAH]

Somewhere from the late 80s to mid 90s we became the Russians.

We went from a commander-centric execution/end-state focused organization to a staff-focused planning centric one.

We even publish it two FM now as oppoed to one.

Orders and the "Orders Process" grew. So staffs grew, so more annexes could be written/published etc.

Brigade level and below should be able to crank-out an robust FRAGO in 2 hours or less. Companies should be able to issue their orders within an hour of getting theirs from higher and it should never be longer then 30 munites. Oral only at company level.

[William F. Owen]

Oral only at company level.

...there may be a better way to say that!

[Tom Odom]

...there may be a better way to say that!

filthy beast...

[Fuchs]

Hmm, I read an article in Armor Magazine (or was it infantry?) from the 90's which was about how a U.S. division fought its way through France and Germany iirc almost entirely without written orders.

I do also recall a document about a U.S. Corps wargame from about 82' where the U.S. corps in Germany had invited iirc Balck and v.Mellenthin to participate. The two veterans stressed how decision-making had to be done in a few minutes, and both the two veterans and the American team were able to put together a mobile defence battle plan for the corps in a few minutes. The veteran's plan was more daring and radical, but both chose the same basic approach.

Officers up to army commander level (above corps) had issued 'spoken' orders without written backup regularly in WW2; in Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and Patton.


Now, could someone please tell me why only written orders should be used above Coy level? TAH?

[Steve Blair]

Now, could someone please tell me why only written orders should be used above Coy level? TAH?

Very simple, Fuchs. CYA.

[Cavguy]

Hmm, I read an article in Armor Magazine (or was it infantry?) from the 90's which was about how a U.S. division fought its way through France and Germany iirc almost entirely without written orders.

It was by Don Vandergriff in ARMOR about a decade ago about MG Wood and 4th Armored Division. I have it in my files somewhere. Will try and find a link.

[TAH]

filthy beast...

especially if we allow females into the Combat Arms

[Pete]

I think a mission type order (in a narrative format like the five-paragraph order) can create a lot of harmony and overcome a lot of seams...for a short period. The staffing process to keep it updated with FRAGOs or complete re-writes is not feasible these days to keep pace with the fight...or organizational entropy.

To keep pace with the fight, or the information overload that we have these days? When fax machines began showing up in the field in 1983 I could see that the floodgates were just starting to open up, information-wise.

[Uboat509]

So how much of the staff problem is a result of the growth of peace-time staffs to handle increased admin requirements? It seems to me that peace-time staffs have gotten bigger even since I first came on active duty in late '91. All those people on peace-time staffs don't go away in war time. Commanders would be used to using them and they themselves would want to insert themselves into the process. It seems only natural that as peace-time staffs get bigger, war-time staffs will increase also.