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  1. #1
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    Default I hear you

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    That may be true but why would it need to get close? If, if it is designed to stay high, fast and shoot missiles from far away it doesn't have to get close.
    We don't even know if its intent is more of a fighter or a bomber. Is it directed at us or a solution to the Indian PakFA? Even if it's high heading toward an F-35, it does not mean it can see the F-35 or successfully lock on to it, especially if it is being jammed and there are other decoys out and about. It's more likely focused on some distant larger radar target AWACS or an F-15 Golden Eagle or F-18E/F with upgraded AESA when it gets an AMRAAM from an unseen F-35 or F-22.


    The ability to afford something is a decision as to where you want to put your resources. We have enough resources to build lots of F-22s but we choose to put those resources elsewhere. If the Chinese make the decision to build lots of J-20s, they can. They will just have to give up something else. That is easier to do in a totalitarian society.
    But for the same money, we can build a lot more nearly as good F-35s and sell others to allies to keep the price even lower. Plus the F-35 splits up our fighter eggs, and gets them closer to the threat so we don't overcongest Guam.

    The F-35 will be no compromise at all if all it can do is look at a J-20 and use that vaunted computing power to calculate exactly when the missile will hit. Our pilots are experienced, but that doesn't mean the other fellow can't think up something nasty for us. The Indians and the Chileans have both done us the favor of showing us up in the past. They weren't experienced. The J-10 first flew in 1998. The Chinese have been working on this stuff for decades. Besides, they may have every bit of data from our decades of work via their internet espionage work.
    Indians and Chileans? Wargames where we couldn't use all our capabilities of newest assets?

    Backward engineering is (I suspect) hard enough when you have the actual item let alone when you have drawings of something small and complex and no means of duplicating that item in quality mass production, and no current sample of the material helping making it low observable.

    Would there be enough of those things to shut down hardened bases, if the opponent chose to harden bases, for a long time? Would they have bases close enough that survive long enough to do any good? I don't know.
    And meanwhile their oil is getting blockaded in the Straits of Mallaca and railways leading to air bases are getting bombed. Commuter rails are hit so millions of Chinese are stranded and a few good bomb hits on highways creates month long trafffic jams for both military and civil traffic.

    I am not so sure we can be so easily dismissive of Japan, Korea and Australia. We could not afford not to have them in it with us.
    Of course we want them on our side but it is their war and threat to their homeland...not ours, and if the Chinese attack them as well as Taiwan, then they get more allies involved. I'm sure we are more than willing to sell them F-35s just as they sell us their goods.

    Shore based SAMS are only good near the shore or a little beyond. Way out to sea, not so much. Ship based SAMS are only good if there is a ship there and you can run them out of missiles. (I know there is a version of the Mk. 41 VLS that can be reloaded at sea but is that version on any of our ships?) I read too there is a shortage of naval missiles. Let's say you made each one of those old Chinese airplanes a drone and pointed them toward an American ship. They wouldn't have any warhead or terminal guidance. They wouldn't need it. Each would have to be engaged because they might be able to hurt you. Pretty soon, poof! No more missiles.
    We have decoys (MALD) and means of jamming their data links too, I suspect. Folks forget that as we are running out of naval and shore SAMs, they are running out of aircraft. 100 quality aircraft with a 10:1 (and submit it would be more like 40:1 against most) air-to-air loss-exchange means we may lose 100 aircraft, but they will lose 1000 lesser quality and far fewer quality aircraft, plus whatever number are killed by the Navy and Patriots. Meanwhile, we still have lots of F-35s and more SAMs on the way.

    Somebody will come back and say we should not lose any aircraft and our pilots need every asymmetric and numbers advantage. But recall that $13 miilion (in TODAY'S dollars) F-4A in the early 1960s. Can we afford to pay for excessive numbers of today's stealthy fighters that cost ten times as much? That is not a realistic outlook when 100 lost planes means nowhere near 100 lost pilots...a number surpassed by ground troops every few months in conflicts with a 100% probability (Afghanistan/iraq), not a .1% probability against China or Russia. Iran and North Korea are probably 5% probability conflicts and we have more than sufficient stealth jets for those adversaries.

  2. #2
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Part f the problem with decoys is that VLO aircraft lose LO characteristics if they carry external loads. A MALD would need to be carried externally, for the weapons bays do not have spare volume.

    MALD is -just as IRST- one of the technologies that favour non-stealth aircraft like Typhoon and Rafale (which don't use such decoys, though).

  3. #3
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Cole:

    This is fun, alternating deconstruction of arguments

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    We don't even know if its intent is more of a fighter or a bomber. Is it directed at us or a solution to the Indian PakFA? Even if it's high heading toward an F-35, it does not mean it can see the F-35 or successfully lock on to it, especially if it is being jammed and there are other decoys out and about. It's more likely focused on some distant larger radar target AWACS or an F-15 Golden Eagle or F-18E/F with upgraded AESA when it gets an AMRAAM from an unseen F-35 or F-22.
    The crux of our differences is the efficacy of the F-35 vs. fighters like the J-20. You believe that it will be close enough to the F-22 to do the job. I think it won't. It was designed mainly to be a light bomber so it just doesn't seem, to my uneducated eye, to have the flight performance and size to even come close to the F-22 or J-20 or PakFA. You cite the F-22 above. With the small number we will have, will there be enough to be on the spot when it matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Plus the F-35 splits up our fighter eggs, and gets them closer to the threat so we don't overcongest Guam.
    But if we are closer, aren't we more vulnerable to all those missiles the Chinese have, especially if our bases aren't hardened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Indians and Chileans? Wargames where we couldn't use all our capabilities of newest assets?
    You mentioned pilot experience, not the totality of airborne combat power. The Indians and Chileans demonstrated that inexperienced pilots can dream things up to surprise us. If they can do it, so can others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Backward engineering is (I suspect) hard enough when you have the actual item let alone when you have drawings of something small and complex and no means of duplicating that item in quality mass production, and no current sample of the material helping making it low observable.
    It might be a mistake to underestimate the cleverness of those guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    And meanwhile their oil is getting blockaded in the Straits of Mallaca and railways leading to air bases are getting bombed. Commuter rails are hit so millions of Chinese are stranded and a few good bomb hits on highways creates month long trafffic jams for both military and civil traffic.
    I think figuring on how a the entire course of a conflict would play out is beyond the scope of this discussion. I am mainly concerned how the J-20 will threaten our plans in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    We have decoys (MALD) and means of jamming their data links too, I suspect. Folks forget that as we are running out of naval and shore SAMs, they are running out of aircraft. 100 quality aircraft with a 10:1 (and submit it would be more like 40:1 against most) air-to-air loss-exchange means we may lose 100 aircraft, but they will lose 1000 lesser quality and far fewer quality aircraft, plus whatever number are killed by the Navy and Patriots. Meanwhile, we still have lots of F-35s and more SAMs on the way.
    I hope so, but it may be folly to count on a 10-1 exchange ratio. 40-1 I think is dreaming; the Chinese may not be the Japanese Naval Air Force of May 1942, but they won't be an Arab air force either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Can we afford to pay for excessive numbers of today's stealthy fighters that cost ten times as much? That is not a realistic outlook when 100 lost planes means nowhere near 100 lost pilots...
    If we go up against an adversary who can match tech and numbers we have to have the things to fight them with. If we don't, we lose. I don't think we are really confronting the reality that our sweet deal with history that has lasted for the last 65 years (as Fuchs said) may be coming to an end, and it will be expensive.
    Last edited by carl; 01-15-2011 at 11:52 PM. Reason: had to add some words and change a date
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Default Stealth from above-Cliff, I have a question.

    Cliff:

    If you are still there, how stealthy are these various designs if they are viewed by a radar from above rather than below or from the same altitude?
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Defend the mainland PRC

    This discussion is far beyond my interests and understanding, but I do recall reading now some thirty years ago that the USA planned an IIRC a conventional bombing campaign in any conflict with the PRC, with waves of B52 strikes etc. Please do not ask for the source as my memory is fading.

    Will knowledge of this option and presumably still a current option impact Chinese defence thinking?
    davidbfpo

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    the USA planned an IIRC a conventional bombing campaign in any conflict with the PRC, with waves of B52 strikes etc. Please do not ask for the source as my memory is fading.
    Dave,Probably came from the SIOP (Single Integrated Operational Plan) part of SAC (Strategic Air Command). Ranged from total world war to single country attack plans.

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    Default Have to stay general...

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Cliff:

    If you are still there, how stealthy are these various designs if they are viewed by a radar from above rather than below or from the same altitude?
    Can't really talk to specifics, but in general most stealth designs are optimized to be stealthy from certain angles. It totally depends on the design where these angles are.

    V/R,

    Cliff

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    Default

    In 2006 I took a class on Asian security. I vividly remember being told that China has 5,000 aircraft, only 1,000 of which can be considered modern.

    They've got a long way to go before they have parity, or can even get close.

    Now, can they close off their airspace with ADA? Different story.

    But I have yet to see any indication of a capable expeditionary threat.

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