Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
Go beyond that and use the same aircraft that all airmen use in initial flight training as the light attack version. Then any airmen can be tasked to fly it just as any can be tasked to fly Reaper/Predator.

Hence having F-22 drivers flying light attack aircraft.
There were rumors that this exact plan would happen, but for F-35 folks.... fly F-35 for the high end, have LAARs or AT-6s for COIN/FAC roles... This would require 2x the planes, and also 2x the maintenance... not exactly affordable in today's day and age.

The F-22 has a T-38 companion trainer program (CTP), but it is more like SAC's old CTP - to give them aircraft to chase guys upgrading and maintain proficiency... T-38 CTP.

However few THREAT nations have large quality fighter inventories, those that do are deterred by nukes, and none have true 5th generation stealth aircraft that allies will have thousands of in a few years. The USAF and friends have priced air combat out of reach of most threat nations and the same level of training is still out of reach in Russia and China. Most of China's and Russia's aircraft are so old that their quantity has little quality of its own. Russian aircraft in Georgia were shot down by MANPAD and friendly fire so we could probably expect similar results in China, whereas allied IR and radar countermeasures and experience would be highly effective.
Unfortunately, the Russians and Indians plan on fielding PAK-FA by 2013.

See my previous post... the US is producing its 189th (actually 186th operational) F-22 right now. China, India, and Russia are all producing air-to-air fighters still... the US will be producing 0 in a few months. At some point, numbers start to matter. See the link to the DoD report in my previous post for words on the effectiveness of SAMs against our aircraft... unfortunately, the threats have some pretty effective SAMs.

Agree that the F-35 with internal ordnance will be a highly effective CAS provider during week one and beyond and even better with external stores. .... The superior air-to-ground capabilities of F-35 make it preferable to more F-22s...even if restoring more parts for it assembly line was cost feasible.
Completely agree on the air-to-ground... the problem I am talking about is air-to-air and SEAD/DEAD... F-22 is much more effective than F-35 in the air-to-air role... F-35 only carries 1/2 the number of missiles... again it comes down to numbers.

As MG(Ret) Scales wrote recently, during WWII, being a bomber or submarine serviceman was as dangerous as being an infantrymen. That has not been the case for 65 years because excessive funding has gone to air and sea supremacy at the expense of the average G.I. Joe who still dies and get maimed in the thousands for every 10 Airmen and Sailors that perish or are legless. Only SEALS and JTACs experience remotely comparable risks.
Let me start by saying that I totally agree that the folks on the ground are bearing the brunt of the current fight. I have nothing but respect for all of those who have placed themselves at risk around the world... they are all heroes.

The current fight is ground and COIN centric, which means that the folks on the ground are bearing this burden. I don't think you can blame this on lack of money... it's more the type of fight we're in. You could potentially blame the lack of spending on the RIGHT resources... MRAP for instance is twice as effective in preventing casualties than the M-1, and over 3x as effective as the HMMWV, see CRS report.

I agree that the ground forces need more emphasis to win the current fight... but you have to hedge your bets at some point. If we win the COIN fight in Afganistan but our allies in another theater are powerless against an agressor because we have lost our ability to deter near-peers... well, both would not be good outcomes, but which has more dramatic effects on our national security? In other words, it's all about balancing risk... both are important.

That's what F-35 and F/A-18E/F and EA-18G are for. Not every enemy aircraft needs to be shot down by an F-22. AWACS and satellites will know where the good stuff is originating. Ground and sea-based air defense systems will get their share as well.
Agree... issue again comes down to numbers and effectiveness. F-35 = 1/2 F-22 missiles... F-18 is not as effective as F-22, and can't survive double digit SAMs. ISR/C2 and datalinks are key for sure.

Our numbers of 5th generation stealth aircraft are climbing faster than their zero.

Even in the Korean war with war-experienced Russian pilots augmenting Chinese, a 10:1 ratio in nearly identical aircraft was the norm. The war experience of Chinese and Russian pilots today, not to mention DPRK or Iranian is essentially non-existent. An F-22 assisted by F/A-18E/F and EA-18G with experienced crews would have much higher ratios because they are much better aircraft and pilots, and will continue to be until plenty of even better allied F-35s and unmanned aircraft exist. Even WVR there would be little to lock onto and F/A-18 and F-35 helmet-mounted displays, F-35 DAS, and clean configuration would prevail when F-22 are arming/refueling. Why haven't we figured out how to do air-to-air rearming with missile pods into internal F-22 and F-35 bays!
Agree on the training piece... that was my point in my previous post, we are at technological parity (except F-22) and are relying on training to keep our edge. Unfortunately, numbers matter... still. An F/A-18 WVR against 4 Flankers is in trouble... Realize that the enemy has all-aspect missiles as well.

It's unfortunate that the USAF, USN, and USMC's successes in the air in the last few conflicts have made people think that we will always have an overmatch in the air.

Yet the USAF air superiority crowd always ignores the capabilities of Patriots and Naval air defense missiles, let alone the other fighters of other services and allies that won't have to fly from Guam.
Cole this is just not true. We train with all of the folks you have mentioned on a routine basis. We are not ignoring their capabilities, not at all. Unfortunately, even Aegis and Patriot only have so many missiles... and their priority has to be TBMs. They help- especially Aegis... but it is not the end-all-be-all. Numbers still matter.

Just having lots of F-35s from all services, JASSM-ER fired from B-52, Tomahawk-launching subs, and an offensive missile fired from vertical launch cells, and figuring out how to fix the Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile future problem would be sufficient to fix China. Increased dependence on selling to Walmart and the U.S. would fix the rest.
All of these things help, but there are some other problems... numbers being one of the biggest... F-35 = 1/2 F-22 missiles, so at best it can cover 1/2 as much until SAMs are knocked back and they put on the external pylons.

Agreed except the area where ability to project power is suffering the most is ground power. The USAF has the most intertheater airlift in the world by a wide margin and yet the US Army wants new GCVs that will hinder ability to use airlfit to deploy or threaten to deploy credible, sustainable heavier armor until sealift arrives.
Hmmm... I don't think it is in any one realm that power projection is suffering- they all are. We are dependent on sea and air LOCs for any power projection... and that is ALL services, the whole joint force. Without LOCs, no one can fight... so everyone needs to be concerned about Anti-Access threats.

All the Russians had to do in Serbia was airland airborne forces to deter NATO. Putting a small HBCT combined arms battalion augmenting an airborne brigade on the east side of Taiwan would be sufficient to deter an amphibious assault in the preparation phase.
How is your HBCT going to get there when the C-17s are shot down by naval SAMs, and the MPF ships are sunk by diesel subs or anti-ship ballistic missiles? How will you sustain said HBCT? You will not be able to get there if the anti-access threat isn't solved. OBTW an HBCT on Taiwan would probably be seen as an act of war...

Clearly, a DPRK strategy would be to destroy our fuel tankers with stay behind forces and artillery, and SOF.
Agree, see above.

I see that the Army is buying more Joint High Speed Vessels which would help in both the Pacific and Persian Gulf. Great unless you buy a fleet of 50+ ton GCVs and future variants of it for the heavy BCT that will quickly eat up a JHSV's 600 ston payload.
All just my opinion, as always.
Agree- GCV needs to be air and sea transportable, which is why it was postponed if I understand right.

One last time- I am not arguing that air superiority is more important, that the Air Force needs a lot more money, or we have to buy F-22s. I am simply saying that we need to be honest and realize that we need LOCs to project power, and anti-access threats can cut those LOCs. We need to understand the risk we are accepting as a joint force, and figure out ways that minimize it within our current constrained forces (means). We are at best at a moderate risk level, and as the threat improves that risk goes up.

Good discussion, appreciate all your points and the good debate Cole!

V/R,

Cliff