View Poll Results: Should FM 3-24 be updated?

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Thread: Time for a FM 3-24: Counterinsurgency Update

  1. #21
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Slap,
    No worries, Wilf on warfare is typically spot on.
    Thank you, but I think you overstate your case..
    The killing of certain insurgents absolutely needs to be a strong, well resourced, supporting effort of any COIN campaign. Main effort must be the repair of governance and re-earning the support of the populace through change, not charity.
    The population will support who ever has POWER, by having the monopoly on armed violence. ONCE that is done, then the political fixing can start.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    It's marginally adequate, way too big and overly pedantic but that seems to be the trend nowadays...

    Follow the link provided by Cav Guy on this page (LINK - big .pdf). Not much of any import in the rest of the thread...
    OK, now we are making progress. FM3-24-2 "establishes doctrine (fundamental principles) for tactical counterinsurgency (COIN)
    operations at the company, battalion, and brigade level."


    Now for platoon and section/squad level, anyone?

  3. #23
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    ONCE that is done, then the political fixing can start.
    It wouldn't, though.

  4. #24
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Default History does not bear this out

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Thank you, but I think you overstate your case..

    The population will support who ever has POWER, by having the monopoly on armed violence. ONCE that is done, then the political fixing can start.
    Time and again it is the "power" of a populace seeking liberty from tyranny that over comes the power of even the strongest and most effective of governments.

    As to the trite catch-phrase of "monopoly on armed violence," I gladly toss it to the same bone pile where so many half-right phrases commonly associated with the efforts of intervening powers to suppress such popular uprisings duly belong.

    The American populace was guaranteed freedoms of speech, the press and assembly so that movements such as the Civil Rights, and now the Tea Party, could not be deemed treason or insurgency by the sitting government; and were guaranteed the possession of our arms to ensure that they never grew too bold in their possession of some concept of "monopoly" on armed violence. It is the lack of such monopoly that leads to (ultimately) the stability of good governance. It is the presence of such monopoly that leads to the stability born of oppression.
    Robert C. Jones
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    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

  5. #25
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Time and again it is the "power" of a populace seeking liberty from tyranny that over comes the power of even the strongest and most effective of governments.
    Not true. Cambodia in the 70's, Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, Saddam's Iraq, A'stan under the Taliban, Saudi-Arabia, Syria, North Korea etc etc etc.

    This "power from the people" is not a reality in the real world, unless they do a lot of killing to get it, and unless they are prepared to keep killing, they can loose it.

    As to the trite catch-phrase of "monopoly on armed violence," I gladly toss it to the same bone pile where so many half-right phrases commonly associated with the efforts of intervening powers to suppress such popular uprisings duly belong.
    Then you don't understand it. It means "Man on the ground with a gun." It's not presented as a "system of Government". It is a means by which control - for both good and bad - is gained and maintained for the Government to function.
    It is the lack of such monopoly that leads to (ultimately) the stability of good governance. It is the presence of such monopoly that leads to the stability born of oppression.
    All sounds good, till you look at Somalia, the Congo, Sierra Leone, parts of Colombia, Thailand etc etc etc. It's the competition for the monopoly that creates the problem and it is frankly ridiculous to suggest the US citizens owning guns gives them the capacity to defend themselves against their government. Never seems to work and never has.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    As simple as that? Now I am begining to understand where it is all going wrong out there...
    Well, in 7 months of COIN I did three things:

    1. Employed Basic Infantry Doctrine;

    2. Tried, as much as possible, to know my backyard; and

    3. Respected/Observed Afghan culture.

    To me, nothing here requires a new manual. If I'm missing anything, please enlighten me.

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    only correct IF you got trained right in the first place.
    Well, that is sort of implied. If I send a poorly trained person to do something, I'm probably not going to get the results I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    b.) We keep learning? Sorry, what crushes a rebellion hasn't really changed. What has changed is the constraints place by policy.
    Agreed - anyone can be defeated, we just aren't willing to acknowledge or accept much of that threshold these days (Jim Storr said that in a conversation we had). I think today's junk-COIN is an effort by the military to find something around that. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it's just farting around with no real solution (because you aren't approaching that threshold).

  7. #27
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Default You misstate the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Not true. Cambodia in the 70's, Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, Saddam's Iraq, A'stan under the Taliban, Saudi-Arabia, Syria, North Korea etc etc etc.

    This "power from the people" is not a reality in the real world, unless they do a lot of killing to get it, and unless they are prepared to keep killing, they can loose it.

    Then you don't understand it. It means "Man on the ground with a gun." It's not presented as a "system of Government". It is a means by which control - for both good and bad - is gained and maintained for the Government to function.

    All sounds good, till you look at Somalia, the Congo, Sierra Leone, parts of Colombia, Thailand etc etc etc. It's the competition for the monopoly that creates the problem and it is frankly ridiculous to suggest the US citizens owning guns gives them the capacity to defend themselves against their government. Never seems to work and never has.
    It is not that I fail to understand, rather that I refuse to agree with your understanding. I merely point out that reasonable minds can differ, and that the model you profess while often applied, is not, IMO, one that can produce enduring, positive, effects.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

  8. #28
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    or said another way, as posted on Doctrine Man's (I am a fan) Facebook

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php...&id=1275108793

    or this:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...&id=1082681298
    Last edited by Bob's World; 11-19-2010 at 03:52 PM.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

  9. #29
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Maybe the new manual has already been written...it is called the Armor Manual.....now we are talkinglink to article below.


    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc....tanks/?hpt=T2

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Maybe the new manual has already been written...it is called the Armor Manual.....now we are talkinglink to article below.


    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapc....tanks/?hpt=T2
    Tanks before more gunships???? That will take some explaining from the Marines.

  11. #31
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Tanks before more gunships???? That will take some explaining from the Marines.
    I don't know (I am a gunship/SPECTRE guy myself) but the article says it was the Marines that wanted the Tanks, so I guess we will see how it works out.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    The population will support who ever has POWER, by having the monopoly on armed violence. ONCE that is done, then the political fixing can start.
    Exactly... and that is why western or civilised countries can't "win" counterinsurgencies or suppress rebellions.

    Take Zimbabwe for example. Mugabe, that darling of western liberals (in the US sense of the word) faced a rebellion of sorts in Matabeleland through the actions of a number of armed dissidents.

    Didn't take him long to suppress that rebellion and not a word of protest heard from the West or anywhere.

    Mugabe saw the dissidents as fish swimming in the water (of the general population). Kind of hard to find the dissidents if the population won't report them (through support or fear) so leave the fish and focus on the "water".

    IF you "poison" the water so that the "fish" can't survive in it then you win... yes?

    Yes.

    Conservative estimates were that Mugabe's (North Korean trained) 5th Brigade killed 30,000 men, women and children until the Matabele population reached tipping point. The Matabele were crushed.

    That's the way you do it... and you don't have to fix the political thing because even today if the people of Matabeleland hear of soldiers in the area wearing red berets the whole nation has a collective bowl movement. All you need to say if they become problematic again is "do you some some more of the same"?

    Then (in a tamer example) we see Sri Lanka first securing support from China (that great nation with supposedly thousands of years of civilisation but still no human rights conscience) then they too apply a little "poison" to the water in which the (Tamil Tiger) fish were swimming. The rest is history.

    That's how you put down rebellions and win counterinsurgency wars... brute force.

    Now which western country would dare employ such an approach? So that is why in most cases one has to give away the farm to "win" the war. Always a Pyrrhic victory to be sure.
    Last edited by JMA; 11-19-2010 at 11:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infanteer View Post
    Well, in 7 months of COIN I did three things:

    1. Employed Basic Infantry Doctrine;

    2. Tried, as much as possible, to know my backyard; and

    3. Respected/Observed Afghan culture.

    To me, nothing here requires a new manual. If I'm missing anything, please enlighten me.
    I'm told by the smart guys that no matter how good the tactics are if the strategy is bad then the whole exercise is pointless. How did your efforts measure against this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I don't know (I am a gunship/SPECTRE guy myself) but the article says it was the Marines that wanted the Tanks, so I guess we will see how it works out.
    Well I'll have to look up how it went with the Soviets when they had tanks in Afghanistan.

  15. #35
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Well I'll have to look up how it went with the Soviets when they had tanks in Afghanistan.
    I already did.....it was bad.....really bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I already did.....it was bad.....really bad.
    There you go then... what are the marines thinking?

  17. #37
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Different war, different enemy, different Armies, different Tanks.

    The Canadians and the Danes have had Tanks there for some time - with good success and no real problems or 'bad' things...

  18. #38
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I already did.....it was bad.....really bad.
    Well yes, when tanks are used by a 3rd rate army.
    Tanks are just a tool. Skilfully employed, they solve a vast array of problems.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    The Canadians and the Danes have had Tanks there for some time - with good success and no real problems or 'bad' things...
    Found this piece on the Canadian use of armour in Afghanistan enlightening.

    ... but if I hear the word risk again I think I will scream.

  20. #40
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    The Canadians and the Danes have had Tanks there for some time - with good success and no real problems or 'bad' things...
    To quote Para 6-84, of FM3-24

    "In COIN operations, having many versatile vehicles that require simple maintenance is often better than having a few highly capable armored
    vehicles or combat systems that require extensive maintenance."
    So no MBT or IFV? Thanks for bad advice FM3-24 writers.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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