The Wikileaks collection

[Ken White]

What is the forum rule regarding linking to cables in relevant threads?

Example: several cables exist regarding Brazilian COIN efforts in Rio’s favela’s - an issue of interest to several forum members. Is it acceptable to post them in the Rio thread?

A fulltext search engine for the cables that have been released, is available at: www.cablesearch.org

Please do not link directly to the actual cables. There are many here who operate on .gov or .mil computers and if they inadvertently go to a cable from this site then they and potentially this site could have a major problem.

If there is any question about whether the actual cables are at a site, a flag similar to “CAUTION – possible links to Wikileaks. US Government policy prohibits official users from accessing”, or similar is desirable.

Whatever any of us thinks of the US Government policy on prohibiting the assessing those cables they are apparently serious about it. I personally disagree with it and with the over politicization for US domestic political purposes of the entire issue. It is much wing flapping about very little. Regardless, the US Government and the US Media are at this time in the de rigueur over reaction mode.

Due to that over reaction and the probable sensible policies that generally get settled upon after the initial flurry, it is not possible to establish a specific or firm policy that will foster the free interchange of ideas while not violating the current US Government policy whatever that may be. A site like cablesearch might be safe today but could be on the 'unacceptable' list of the Government policy tomorrow.


...............Please err on the side of caution in deference to those members who visit this site from .gov or .mil computers..............


...

[omarali50]

I visit this site to see what the saner end of the military-industrial complex is thinking and I am rarely disappointed in the quality of the opinions (as a lifelong left-liberal fellow traveller, I will be the first to admit that the quality of debate and data is much higher than that found on "my side" of the fence). But I am a little disappointed that so many good people are hyperventilating about wikileaks. I think the long term trajectory of our civilization (and yes, I said "our")is towards greater transparency and the first large country to get used to it may well be the United States and that is going to be a good thing. The ancient Chinese sages supposedly said that the sight of flowers and the sound of falling water are the only goods without admixture of evil, so expect some evil in this transparency, but all in all, it will be an improvement over the past. I think Julian Assange has done modern civilization a great service.

[Ken White]

But I am a little disappointed that so many good people are hyperventilating about wikileaks. I think the long term trajectory of our civilization (and yes, I said "our")is towards greater transparency and the first large country to get used to it may well be the United States and that is going to be a good thing...I think Julian Assange has done modern civilization a great service.

The hyperventilating is being done by the US Political class who believe (wrongly) that they must be seen as 'Doing something.' They lie so much to get elected that they continue to do that at any opportunity -- what better lie than to fulminate at someone, not an American that we probably cannot touch, deter or harm? You'd think they'd realize that foolishness is not helpful to the nation (on an international basis in particular) but they aren't concerned about that, they are concerned only with domestic politics and their reelection...

They are aided in this charade -- and that's what it is -- by the US Media, most of whom are little more than gossip mongers and to whom Julian A. has given a trove of gossip which they must try to embellish and make into the major story that it is not. So there's a whole lot of sound and fury in Washington and the media but almost none on the ground in the broader US.

This site is heavily populated with people who do or did work for or with the US Government. Most of those people are not particularly concerned with what the leak did to the US and I think a good many disagree with much of the Government's pronouncements and policy on the issue. However, they are totally hacked off at Manning (or whoever...) and Assange because they know those folks just made their jobs much harder.

What should happen is the leaker should be found and shot -- we won't do that, not the American way. We do not punish the guilty. We punish the innocent. What we will do is set more snoopers about, tighten all the bureaucratic rules, forbid the use of thumb drives, CDs or removable media, make it incredibly difficult to exchange information, initiate new and burdensome rules for clearances and more. Much more. Much, much more -- and it's already started.

So the guys are mad at Manning or whoever for stealing the material but they are really mad at Assange for making their jobs difficult.

On your broader philosophical note, two points. Transparency is a good thing, no question, yet there is also a need for discretion. There is and has been a natural tension between those two necessities and the preponderance of value has tilted back and forth. I agree that more transparency is probably a better alternative and that the natural penchant for bureaucracies to attempt to hide their shortfalls needs to be removed. I also agree the trajectory recently has been and is toward more transparency. However, I'm not at all convinced the Wikileaks modus is a good way to speed up or improve on that trajectory.

I'm not sure Assange has done a service. Governments around the world will do the same thing that the US is doing right now -- tighten the rules. I suspect you'll see less rather than more transparency.

The pendulum is likely to reverse its swing as a result of this...

[JMA]

So the guys are mad at Manning or whoever for stealing the material but they are really mad at Assange for making their jobs difficult.

My question is why aren't these strong and brave people at State and the CIA not going after New York Times, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, Le Monde and El Pais as well? After all are they not publishing this information as well?

[JMA]

US looks into cyber attacks on WikiLeaks foes

From the Keystone Cops:

The Justice Department is looking into cyber attacks on opponents of WikiLeaks and companies that have stopped doing business with it, Attorney General Eric Holder said Thursday.

What I am missing here is news about the investigation into the DDoS relating to WikiLeaks related websites?

It may be missed on some but the absolute hypocrisy of the "if I do it its OK but if you do the same its a crime" by another US government department is just one more example of how the actions of the USG make the US a laughing stock in the eyes of the world. Yes, even in the eyes of Micky Mouse third world countries.

[JMA]

Hows this for incompetence leading to a serious risk of a breach of military security in Helmand?

Afghanistan military secrets sold for £18.87 on eBay after army officer dumped laptop in a skip

...Files – none of which required passwords - included troop numbers, patrol details, ammunition stock lists and locations of every police command post in a Helmand town.
The shocked buyer, who handed the laptop to the MoD, also found it contained hundreds of photos, along with names and other details, of locals risking their lives by joined the Afghan National Police and Afghan National Army.
Also stored on the Toshiba Satellite A30 laptop was a copy of the Afghan National Police’s tactical handbook, giving details of every aspect of how to take on and defeat the enemy, including how to identify IED roadside bombs...

So what to do? Shoot the guy? String him up? Boot him out of the army? Slap him on the wrist? Forget about it... its no big deal?

[91bravojoe]

"Afghanistan military secrets" sounds like a damn old oxymoron to me.

I seem to remember nobody wanting to operate with the ARVNs(Army of the "Republic" of Vietnam), because all ARVN operations were giant security leaks, by definition and practice. ARVN members had gone to school with the other side, were brothers, cousins and sons of the other side. Hard to believe that anybody actually believed they wanted to wage war on the other side.

How can anybody think that the Afghanistan 'military' isn't a sham of a mockery of a scam? Locations of police stations? Did I see that right?

[Ken White]

My question is why aren't these strong and brave people at State and the CIA not going after New York Times, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, Le Monde and El Pais as well? After all are they not publishing this information as well?

The system goes after the person or person responsible for the leaks. It fulminates but does and probably can do little about the ex post facto disseminator. It can and will do little or nothing to the media for publishing what the first two made available.

One issue that raises is whether or not Wikileaks qualifies as "the press" under US law. Not yet known and it may or may not, the Courts will decide if or when it comes to a test. If it does, then Assange will be protected under US law.

What I am missing here is news about the investigation into the DDoS relating to WikiLeaks related websites?

Probably due to the impact on commerce or lack thereof, don't you think? Early days yet, more to come.

I note that US is not the only nation pursuing the hackettes (LINK). There'll be more. I think it has to do with the number of people affected more than any conscious desire to be unfair in prosecution of offenses. In similar offenses by two opposing parties, the effort to mitigate the greatest potential harm to others will always determine which offender gets the most and earliest attention.

But then, you knew that...

It may be missed on some but the absolute hypocrisy of the "if I do it its OK but if you do the same its a crime" by another US government department is just one more example of how the actions of the USG make the US a laughing stock in the eyes of the world. Yes, even in the eyes of Micky Mouse third world countries.

The actions of the USG or the reports by the US news media? The latter rarely know precisely what the former is really doing and they report a lot of gossip and speculation -- and you fall for it.

So, apparently do many of the nations you unfairly deride.

In fairness to you and to others, I certainly acknowledge our news media, by and large, is quite poor and does indeed make a laughing stock of the US in general for those elsewhere who do not know better. The actuality is that we do bumble a bit but our media can't even report that properly. They are or should be the laughing stock -- as could also be said of those who propose serious comment based on inadequate information, media speculation, ignorance and personal bias.

OK, so now I am learning "US think".

Well that is certainly progress! Long overdue, too...

So doing something that will/may/possibly/at a stretch put lives at risk is only bad if they are US lives and the lives of their agents/mercenaries/snitches?

Nah, not 'only bad,' simply more relevant and more in line with national interests. Concern for others is one of our better features but we also -- like many -- have a strong sense of self preservation and more concern for friends and relatives than for strangers. Is that unusual?

It looks as though you're not really learning "US think," rather that you only think you are doing so. One could be tempted to point out you might benefit from learning certainly much more if not all about the US instead of selecting snippets appropriate to your penchant for making spurious comments and dropping innuendo bombs, then perhaps those would have more telling impact ...

[JMA]

The system goes after the person or person responsible for the leaks. It fulminates but does and probably can do little about the ex post facto disseminator. It can and will do little or nothing to the media for publishing what the first two made available.

Nah... it appears that Bradley Manning is the prime suspect. Assange and the newspapers are merely receivers of stolen property.

The Pentagon Papers incident gave USG and indication of how difficult taking on the press legally is (also the New York Times).

So bullies and cowards that they are they go after the little guy who did not steal the data.

This is the truth of the matter.

One issue that raises is whether or not Wikileaks qualifies as "the press" under US law. Not yet known and it may or may not, the Courts will decide if or when it comes to a test. If it does, then Assange will be protected under US law.Probably due to the impact on commerce or lack thereof, don't you think? Early days yet, more to come.

...in the meantime his case has been so publicly prejudiced that like Ellsberg he can never get a fair trial in the US.

As to US law and the rule of law with the opening of Guantanamo Bay US justice is not held in very high esteem around the world.

I note that US is not the only nation pursuing the hackettes (LINK). There'll be more. I think it has to do with the number of people affected more than any conscious desire to be unfair in prosecution of offenses. In similar offenses by two opposing parties, the effort to mitigate the greatest potential harm to others will always determine which offender gets the most and earliest attention.

One minute the US is condemning China for hacking Google and censoring the Internet the next they are doing similar. Does anyone in the current Administration believe that they are doing any more than bringing the US and its people into international disrepute?

But then, you knew that...The actions of the USG or the reports by the US news media? The latter rarely know precisely what the former is really doing and they report a lot of gossip and speculation -- and you fall for it.

No Ken, what I see is government out of control. Maybe less criminal than Russia or China nevertheless out of control.

...and sadly there is a tendency of a certain section of the US population to try to block out the reality of what is happening in their government.

So, apparently do many of the nations you unfairly deride.

I don't deride people even the sheeple of any country... but am quite rightly critical of the US and Brit governments especially the State Department and their partner in crime across the pond the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

fairness to you and to others, I certainly acknowledge our news media, by and large, is quite poor and does indeed make a laughing stock of the US in general for those elsewhere who do not know better. The actuality is that we do bumble a bit but our media can't even report that properly. They are or should be the laughing stock -- as could also be said of those who propose serious comment based on inadequate information, media speculation, ignorance and personal bias.Well that is certainly progress! Long overdue, too...Nah, not 'only bad,' simply more relevant and more in line with national interests. Concern for others is one of our better features but we also -- like many -- have a strong sense of self preservation and more concern for friends and relatives than for strangers. Is that unusual?

National Interest? Provide a definition of that if you will. It seems that the misuse of term is used to cover any act from murder to torture to... just about anything. Not nice people. I don't know how you tolerate it.

It looks as though you're not really learning "US think," rather that you only think you are doing so. One could be tempted to point out you might benefit from learning certainly much more if not all about the US instead of selecting snippets appropriate to your penchant for making spurious comments and dropping innuendo bombs, then perhaps those would have more telling impact ...

The people of the world can see what is going on. The people of the US could see what is going on but they are being told that it is unpatriotic or even treasonous to challenge what whichever administration is abusing the system at the time and flick over to the sports channel, have another beer (or maybe a double bourbon) and pretend everything would be just dandy if only someone took Assange out and closed down his website.

The people of the world have probably given up on the US as so-called leader of the free-world but that should not deter the citizens of the US from retaking control of their own country. Maybe they need an Oliver Cromwell figure?

[omarali50]

About fake wikileaks and intelligence agencies that are always ahead of the curve: http://accidentalblogger.typepad.com...leaksomar.html

[Ken White]

So bullies and cowards that they are they go after the little guy who did not steal the data....This is the truth of the matter.

Doubt it. We'll see...

As to US law and the rule of law with the opening of Guantanamo Bay US justice is not held in very high esteem around the world.

Really? That is a matter of grave concern to me...

...Does anyone in the current Administration believe that they are doing any more than bringing the US and its people into international disrepute?

I've no idea. Probably not, they are indeed gaffe prone.

No Ken, what I see is government out of control. Maybe less criminal than Russia or China nevertheless out of control.

Great vision on your part. That from over 8,00 miles away. I'm right here and I see it as just bumbling and fumbling along as usual.

I could make the case that most governments are somewhat out of control...

I don't deride people even the sheeple of any country...

Ah, in the RSA "Mickey Mouse" is not considered a derogatory adjective. Quaint.

but am quite rightly critical of the US and Brit governments especially the State Department and their partner in crime across the pond the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Really? I'd have never guessed.

Can't speak to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office but I doubt your opinion of the US Department of State and mine differ much. You'd probably be surprised by the number of Americans who share that distaste...

National Interest? Provide a definition of that if you will.

I fail to understand why you don't do your own Searches. here: LINK

It seems that the misuse of term is used to cover any act from murder to torture to... just about anything. Not nice people. I don't know how you tolerate it.

That's easy to answer -- we have large quantity of Scotch Irish who learned all about perfidious Albion in first Scotland then Ireland and later in the American Colonies. We do not just tolerate it, we encourage it, revel in it, love it, even. Mostly because it really annoys the would be liberal intelligentsia who are vaguely Eurocentric and who see themselves as the dispensers and arbiters of enlightenment and civilization. Aside from us rowdy Scotch Irish there are a slew of people from other nations who came here because they did not like what those nations did or do -- they have no desire whatsoever to emulate said other nations.

The people of the world can see what is going on.

Heh, if your stated views are typical, 'fraid not...

The people of the US could see what is going on but they are being told that it is unpatriotic or even treasonous to challenge what whichever administration is abusing the system at the time and flick over to the sports channel, have another beer (or maybe a double bourbon) and pretend everything would be just dandy if only someone took Assange out and closed down his website.

In reverse order; only a few nut jobs believe that; bourbon is good, beer a poor substitute; there are many sports fans I guess, I truly don't know any but I do see them depicted on television a lot; not many believe that tripe; not could see, can see. Some object, some do not, most are willing to be supportive unless their personal lines are crossed.

Essentially, in any situation, about 1/3 of the US population will support the Administration of the day, party line dependent, another 1/3 will disagree with varying levels of distaste and noise (again mostly on party affiliation or support basis) and the remaining third thinks both those thirds -- or certainly their ten percent far out fringe elements -- are not too bright. That middle third will support what they think makes sense -- and world opinion is never an issue. Never. It will be touted by the partisan thirds occasionally, situation dependent. That effectively means that, as Christie Blatchford, an astute Canadian newspaper columnist once said, "the majority of Americans don't give a Rat's a$# what the world thinks."

The people of the world have probably given up on the US as so-called leader of the free-world but that should not deter the citizens of the US from retaking control of their own country. Maybe they need an Oliver Cromwell figure?

Nah, they've given up on us before. That syndrome was more powerful at the later stages of Viet Nam than it is today. We are really considered not so relevant by most of the world due to our foolish preoccupation with the Middle East and its neighbors. They vilify us and ignore us, try to slick things through. Until something gets sticky; then the wail goes up "What are the Americans going to do about this?" Everything goes in cycles, this too will pass.

Oh, BTW. The Pentagon Papers, another much ado about nothing, -- did they actually change anything? Nope -- didn't show how difficult taking on the press legally happens to be. The First Amendment to the Constitution did that in 1791, that's 60 years before there was a New York Times. Actually, Peter Zenger got there even earlier, 1735, IIRC. Lot of court cases in between then and now have most all fallen on the side of a free press and as I mentioned, we don't have an Official Secrets Act or anything approaching it. How about you?.