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Thread: The Wikileaks collection

  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    what they say on the Assange matter???

    I'd also press your quote into addressing the most of the media as well -- they tend to be over excitable...
    On the Assange matter you are likely to get different views probably along anticipated party political lines.

    As with the media. Quite sure one can by now anticipate which slant you will get from which TV station and from which newspaper.

    Are you fooled by it?

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    What specifically has the United States done that was illegal in this affair? Other than innuendo and verbalizations what has the United States government actually done?
    I ask you exactly the same question about Assange and WikiLeaks? Any more than for instance the NYT?

    As far as illegal is concerned lest just start with that horrible Clinton womans cable instructing all diplomatic staff to spy on UN staff and others.

    If the US would deal swiftly with that then maybe they would regain some credibility... and given the history of US extra legal activities it is fair to say that on the balance of probabilities we have the makings of another Watergate brewing within the Obama administration.

  3. #383
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    I ask you exactly the same question about Assange and WikiLeaks? Any more than for instance the NYT?

    As far as illegal is concerned lest just start with that horrible Clinton womans cable instructing all diplomatic staff to spy on UN staff and others.

    If the US would deal swiftly with that then maybe they would regain some credibility... and given the history of US extra legal activities it is fair to say that on the balance of probabilities we have the makings of another Watergate brewing within the Obama administration.
    You are mixing your cases. I said what has the United States done to Assange, as alleged earlier. You toss out one of the cables as an example. That is a non sequitur. You also toss out comparisons with Wikileaks and NYT.

    The allegation by you was in response to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus
    What I think the world will not forget or forgive is the vicious, petty and dangerously chilling attack on Wikileaks and Assange, since if they can successfully do it to them and get away with it, they can do it to anyone in future. It is also likely to spawn a cyber war.
    To which you stated:
    Quote Originally Posted by JMA
    Good post, mate.

    IMHO the US has made the serious mistake of not simply following the legal path where they are able and not getting up to all the illegal stuff.
    The question remains, what specifically, has the United States done in the Wikileaks/Assange debacle that was illegal?
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  4. #384
    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    As far as illegal is concerned lest just start with that horrible Clinton womans cable instructing all diplomatic staff to spy on UN staff and others.
    So, Mrs. Clinton, in her role as SoS, asked diplomatic staff to report any and all information on the staff of other diplomatic missions at the UN.

    1. Exactly which section of the United States Code did this violate?
    2. Do you have some information that she was asking them to break US law? Please, cite the evidence and see question 1.
    3. Which missions to the UN do you believe to be so incompetent that they don't do exactly the same thing?
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  5. #385
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Wolfsberger, you didn't read the text in question, did you? Maybe some non-U.S. reports about it which gave some background?

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Clearly Clinton who signed this cable has to go, but the question now is whether Obama authorised this action.

    Little wonder the State Department is so angry about the leaks...
    And BTW, every Embassy in the world signs off their cables with the SECSTATE's last name.

    It however, hardly means the SECSTATE saw it, read it, concurs with it.

    It's so routine, that most of us back then just did a copy/paste because it had to be there.
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  7. #387
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Nope

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Are you fooled by it?
    However, you often appear to be. Many of your posts here certainly are strong reactions -- or overreactions -- to first blush, incomplete media reports and the ridiculous statements of politicians...
    As far as illegal is concerned lest just start with that horrible Clinton womans cable instructing all diplomatic staff to spy on UN staff and others.
    I'd agree with your description but probably for quite different reasons. In any event, as Stan noted, all Embassy cables are 'signed' by the current SecState just as all our Bank Notes are 'signed' by the current SecTreas.

    I keep trying to tell you we're different. Not better, maybe worse but in any event just different. You cannot judge the US by what other nations do or don't do.

    I presume you do know that the UN Buildings in New York (as well as in Geneva and elsewhere) are espionage hubs for most nations? The question indicates you may not be. Should be obvious, though...
    If the US would deal swiftly with that then maybe they would regain some credibility...
    The US government is purposely designed to not be able to act swiftly and we really like it that way. Cuts down on the real overreaction even if it does stimulate a lot of the verbal sort. We are also quite unconcerned about our 'credibility' with others.
    ...and given the history of US extra legal activities it is fair to say that on the balance of probabilities we have the makings of another Watergate brewing within the Obama administration.
    Could be, no big thing, we can do another 'Gate' or two or more and still be here. On the extra legal bit, stay tuned, more to come. From this Administration and the next -- and the next and the one after that until we are no more (and that is likely to be well past your Grandchildren's life times...).

  8. #388
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    Ken is quite right. Various countries spy on the UN. Various countries have spies at the UN. Pretty much everyone who works for the UN realizes that people spy on them. No revelations there.

    Equally, diplomats collect information. They collect all sorts of information. They have been doing it since the beginning of diplomacy. It is what they are (among other things) paid to do.

    Overall I'm struck by the way in which the "cablegate" leaks seem to generally confirm people's preexisting biases. Those inclined to see the US up to nefarious actions find evidence of those. Those who tend to see the US in a more positive light, on the contrary, find the leaks as comfortable confirmation that US diplomats pretty much do in private what Washington does in public, just more frankly.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    ... we have the makings of another Watergate brewing within the Obama administration.
    JMA, you seem to be the only person in the world who thinks these Wikileaks revelations will cause the world as we know it to come to an end. Everyone else, including most people in the U.S. as well, yawn and wonder what else is new. You need to get away from your computer and find a hobby, fishing, stamp collecting, or something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    JMA, you seem to be the only person in the world who thinks these Wikileaks revelations will cause the world as we know it to come to an end. Everyone else, including most people in the U.S. as well, yawn and wonder what else is new. You need to get away from your computer and find a hobby, fishing, stamp collecting, or something else.
    Hi Pete, not suggesting for one minute that the world will come to an end... but I do understand your growing discomfort at the controlled release of these documents by a website and a number of high profile international newspapers. Man, it must be embarrassing.

    Thanks for the suggestions of what I should do with myself... I will reist the temptation of returning the compliment.

    Do take care now.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    The US government is purposely designed to not be able to act swiftly and we really like it that way. Cuts down on the real overreaction even if it does stimulate a lot of the verbal sort.
    Well the downside of that is that there is the temptation for the less moral and ethical of your politicians and bureaucrats to, as a short cut, take the law into their own hands - which sadly seems to be the case already.

    Lets sit back and watch, the show hasn't started yet only 1,344 out of 251,287 documents released.

    So tell me Ken... is it going to get more boring or more and more embarrassing as this all unfolds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    The question remains, what specifically, has the United States done in the Wikileaks/Assange debacle that was illegal?
    I like that... the innocent until proved guilty routine.

    Pity it does not apply to WikiLeaks and Assange.

  13. #393
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    Default JMA, please clarify.

    In other words, what the hell are you talking about?

    I really have no idea what actions by the US you have been talking about. Please, just list them. After that, we can discuss legalities, but until you explain to the rest of us what action(s) you think the US has taken with regard to Wikileaks and Assange, this is just a pointless exercise in yelling past each other - and by definition a waste of time.
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    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
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    I would like tat someone tel me why the UN are spy hub. It's a government association. People who work there represent governments (especially in NY) and are doing active diplomacy (basically making sure that nothing never happens ). Trying to know what yor neigbor think is the diplo basic course 101.
    And sorry but viewing the results on the ground... What a waste of time and energy.
    By leaking that cable, Assange made rather fn of Mme Clinon rather than showing how evil she is.

  15. #395
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default That's easy

    Quote Originally Posted by M-A Lagrange View Post
    I would like tat someone tel me why the UN are spy hub.
    The answer to that is this:
    It's a government association. People who work there represent governments (especially in NY) and are doing active diplomacy (basically making sure that nothing never happens ). Trying to know what yor neigbor think is the diplo basic course 101.
    Which is quite true. The locations become hubs as a result of having diplomatic representatives from all nations consolidated in a few locations. That makes for ease of access to multiple targets. The Diplomats aren't necessarily the spies, they are the targets of spies -- or agents, really -- who flock to where they may learn something, anything, of value by doing nothing more dangerous than going out to dinner or to a cocktail party. Or cleaning an office, being a Dentist, driving a taxicab...

  16. #396
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default After answering the sensible question by M.A., I can turn to other things...

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Well the downside of that is that there is the temptation for the less moral and ethical of your politicians and bureaucrats to, as a short cut, take the law into their own hands...
    As you said of politicans...
    - which sadly seems to be the case already.
    Your proof of that contention is?
    Lets sit back and watch, the show hasn't started yet only 1,344 out of 251,287 documents released.
    Whatever you need to do for entertainment...
    So tell me Ken... is it going to get more boring or more and more embarrassing as this all unfolds?
    I say the former but am quite sure you will endeavor -- most likely fruitlessly -- to elevate some things to the latter in your convoluted fashion. You have fun, heah (that's a US Southern-ism with some nuance that's quite applicable...)

    Your diversionary prowess is really slipping. That's on display with this exchange. Selil has asked twice "...what specifically, has the United States done in the Wikileaks/Assange debacle that was illegal?" and your quite non-specific but apparently best response is a rather limp:
    I like that... the innocent until proved guilty routine.

    Pity it does not apply to WikiLeaks and Assange.
    Yet again you've been called out on bogus comments by others and have no real response, merely adding more innuendo as a feeble attempt to counter...

  17. #397
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    "Trying to know what yor neigbor think is the diplo basic course 101."

    To collect DNA samples of foreign diplomats doesn't sound like diplo 101, though. It sounds more like preparations for framing and blackmailing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    "Trying to know what yor neigbor think is the diplo basic course 101."

    To collect DNA samples of foreign diplomats doesn't sound like diplo 101, though. It sounds more like preparations for framing and blackmailing.
    Gasp... you mean (some organ of) the USG may actually indulge in such nefarious activities such as (gasp) framing and blackmail?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    To collect DNA samples of foreign diplomats doesn't sound like diplo 101, though. It sounds more like preparations for framing and blackmailing.
    Probably more for biogeographical ancestry purposes; identity plays a huge role in the world and is factor in an individual’s decision making. Ancestral information would be desired for any background dossier, and modern science allows for the identification of a person’s genetic percentages or tribal origin. All this, however, would require a DNA sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    "Trying to know what yor neigbor think is the diplo basic course 101."

    To collect DNA samples of foreign diplomats doesn't sound like diplo 101, though. It sounds more like preparations for framing and blackmailing.
    Blackmailing on what? Who sleeps with who? Who's a war criminal or other dirty stuff?
    Everyone knows already, there are very few secrets in that organization.

    The idea of tribal origin sound much crazier and less realistic. So it must be it.

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