The Wikileaks collection

[JMA]

The WikiLeaks founder sits in a British jail based on evidence authorities generally scoff at. Former sex crimes prosecutor Wendy Murphy on how the case politicizes rape—and hurts women. source

Swedish prosecutors now have a big problem: Sex without a condom is so terrible that scads of law-enforcement officials traveled around the world to bring an offender to justice—but what happens next week, when a woman shows up at the police station to report that her boyfriend kept thrusting after a condom broke during sex? Or how about the wife who wants her husband charged because he put his hands in her PJs while she was sleeping?

I am thinking that the next time I get groped by some randy 50 year old I will march her down to the local police station...

[aercdr]

Am I the only one amused by the fact that Julian and his attorney are shocked by the leaking of the Swedish court documents? What an invasion of privacy! I am sure that he will stand up for his rights in the book that he just signed a deal for. Things really couldn't be going better for him. Still, I can't decide whether it’s the delicious irony or the brazen hypocrisy that tickles me most.

[91bravojoe]

Chutzpah.

[91bravojoe]

In paging back through this material, I encountered a disturbing lack of understanding of the way Manning is being treated. Read this 2 or 3 times:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl.../12/14/manning

[Steve the Planner]

Joe:

What floors me in the article is the reference to Manning as a legit whistleblower for the Helo attack (there is some possible merit there, and he will be free to argue it. But what does that have to do with blowing 250,000 cables into the air? What was the specific and corollary justification for that?

He knew, or should have known, that a wide and indiscriminate dump of so many records could pose serious consequences to multiples of those harmed in the Helo attack.

Non Sequitor.

[JMA]

Am I the only one amused by the fact that Julian and his attorney are shocked by the leaking of the Swedish court documents? What an invasion of privacy! I am sure that he will stand up for his rights in the book that he just signed a deal for. Things really couldn't be going better for him. Still, I can't decide whether it’s the delicious irony or the brazen hypocrisy that tickles me most.

No you are not see my post #235

[JMA]

Joe:

What floors me in the article is the reference to Manning as a legit whistleblower for the Helo attack (there is some possible merit there, and he will be free to argue it. But what does that have to do with blowing 250,000 cables into the air? What was the specific and corollary justification for that?

He knew, or should have known, that a wide and indiscriminate dump of so many records could pose serious consequences to multiples of those harmed in the Helo attack.

Non Sequitor.

If they can prove he leaked the video on the helo attack why do you think they have not dealt with that before the courts already (7 months on)?

[Ken White]

charges -- and to see if anything really damaging was leaked (nothing but Diplomatic gossip and chatter thus far... ).

If they can prove he leaked the video on the helo attack why do you think they have not dealt with that before the courts already (7 months on)?

They wouldn't have charged him for the video leak without pretty solid proof. Military prosecutors don't like to lose and the UCMJ has much tougher protection and evidentiary rules than do Federal civilian Courts (which in turn have tougher proof requirements than State and Local courts) so the video theft and leak is probably a lock. The added time until his trial, probably next spring, a full year after he was charged, is fairly typical for major UCMJ cases. So is the thus lengthy pre-trial confinement.

As I said earlier, only the odd wad left is incensed about Manning's arrest, charging, detention and long wait for a trial.

[selil]

Military prosecutors don't like to lose and the UCMJ has much tougher protection and evidentiary rules than do Federal civilian Courts (which in turn have tougher proof requirements than State and Local courts) ...

I would quibble with that. Most (not all) of the states use the same rules of evidence as the federal courts, and in many (not all) states (counties, parishes) the protections for defendants may be higher. Caveat that almost all local (municipalities, metros) courts do not handle felony prosecutions.

[Stan]

He signed a document way back when which, among other grandiose things means he would not betray his country (and the rest of us at home or abroad).

As an MI analyst it clearly was never up to him (an E-3 who has no need to even shave yet) to quibble over moral right and wrong, and get some frigging attack of honesty to dump his DB on the internet.

He's dead-ass wrong and hanging out in solitary eating free food on me pisses me off.

If some feel where he is and how he's being treated are bad, take a step back and try Africa or just about any Muslim State. He'd be rightfully dead already and we wouldn't be wasting cash on the ambulance chasers.

[Ken White]

I would quibble with that. Most (not all) of the states use the same rules of evidence as the federal courts, and in many (not all) states (counties, parishes) the protections for defendants may be higher. Caveat that almost all local (municipalities, metros) courts do not handle felony prosecutions.

Haven't been to Court in a while.

I guess I didn't say what I meant properly but I also guess you're correct, the Military Rules of Evidence apparently now track the Federal Rules and the States now apparently and generally do that as well. ...

However, Plus ça change, I don't think that invalidates my basic point -- the UCMJ is more protective of the rights of the accused than any other code of which I'm aware -- but again, I haven't been to Court in a while...

[selil]

Haven't been to Court in a while.

I guess I didn't say what I meant properly but I also guess you're correct, the Military Rules of Evidence apparently now track the Federal Rules and the States now apparently and generally do that as well. ...

However, Plus ça change, I don't think that invalidates my basic point -- the UCMJ is more protective of the rights of the accused than any other code of which I'm aware -- but again, I haven't been to Court in a while...

I see what you are getting at. That I think we agree upon. I have said many times if I'm an innocent man I'd rather be brought before a court marshal, and if I were guilty a jury of the 12 who couldn't figure out how to get out of service. In the former logic prevails and in the latter the better dressed.

[91bravojoe]

The cables that have been published contained such riveting material as "Canada is a strong ally of the United States", and "There are thieves in the Russian government".

I've not seen a single story of somebody actually or contingently being harmed. Wikileaks has allowed review prior to individual releases. Something like 3 million US employees had routine access to the cable base. VERY insecure material.

It's clear that the reaction to the cable material is "sky is falling" emo stuff.

[Old Eagle]

I am trying to put together a panel discussion on the wikileaks thing. It's obvious from the thread above that all the sex is in a) whether or not Assange is a dirtbag, b) how the Manning part ought to be handled, c) how the U.S. government is comporting itself in the aftermath, etc.

My three boring issues are the following:

1. the cables show how the Diplomatic part of DIME works
2. they will have an impact on diplomatic relations with both countries and with individual interlocutors
3. they will have an impact on how information is shared among agencies.

It's not sexy, but for those among the informed public, it's where the action is.

[selil]

I am trying to put together a panel discussion on the wikileaks thing. It's obvious from the thread above that all the sex is in a) whether or not Assange is a dirtbag, b) how the Manning part ought to be handled, c) how the U.S. government is comporting itself in the aftermath, etc.

My three boring issues are the following:

1. the cables show how the Diplomatic part of DIME works
2. they will have an impact on diplomatic relations with both countries and with individual interlocutors
3. they will have an impact on how information is shared among agencies.

It's not sexy, but for those among the informed public, it's where the action is.

I think #3 is where the action is going to be. The DOD, really screwed over state on this particular incident. When you're the trillion dollar gorilla and you screw over the the state department (your partner) the ramifications going to forward could be interesting. There could be a lot of discussion with the changes in acceptance of clearances by other agencies, where does this fit in with domestic/DHS access. How will this impact security since the incident could be directly tied back to the 9/11 Commission report.

[Rex Brynen]

It's not sexy, but for those among the informed public, it's where the action is.

I'll add #4 --the extent to which the constant Wikileaks brushfires take up the time and energies of folks at DoS who would otherwise be doing more productive things.

[Stan]

An unexpected and welcomed positive outcome, even in the open press (well, not the Russian press )

My three boring issues are the following:

1. the cables show how the Diplomatic part of DIME works
2. they will have an impact on diplomatic relations with both countries and with individual interlocutors
3. they will have an impact on how information is shared among agencies.

It's not sexy, but for those among the informed public, it's where the action is.

1, 2 and 3. According to our folks at the Embassy their contacts and working relationships remain intact, and some feel are even better than in previous years. The Estonians were quite pleased with our reporting of the Bronze Nights (Russian bronze statue), so-called Cyber Wars and, even though a tad critical, their capacity to bring calm back to the streets with only one death (which later turned out had nothing to do with police and military responses). The cables also quasi confirmed Estonian suspicions about her Eastern neighbor.

On the humorous side of things the Russian papers last week quoted Putin (with a rather sly grin on his face) "they need to take better care of (their) important papers". Nothing like calling the kettle black

[JMA]

Haven't been to Court in a while.

It seems neither has Bradley Manning. Has it been established whether Manning has been before any court yet even for a remand?

Now if the "military justice" system does not require a process which a normal prosecution should follow (and seen to be fair to someone not yet found guilty of any crime) then the USG should accept that there is a danger that they could be making a martyr out of Manning (certainly in the eyes of the vocal political left).

[anonamatic]

It seems neither has Bradley Manning. Has it been established whether Manning has been before any court yet even for a remand?

Now if the "military justice" system does not require a process which a normal prosecution should follow (and seen to be fair to someone not yet found guilty of any crime) then the USG should accept that there is a danger that they could be making a martyr out of Manning (certainly in the eyes of the vocal political left).

Yes, he has been charged. The documents are online in fact. They also give some rough time lines, as well as specific acts he's accused of. You may want to compare those, the chat logs, and Julian's BS.

He's being treated entirely fairly, it's fairly standard conditions he's in, and compared to prisons where there is a lot of overcrowding they're pretty good. The witless shrieking from the extreme left is exactly that, witless shrieking.

There is *a lot* of deceptive behavior going on with the Wikileaks crowd. Lost in the media & political hysteria has been some of the common sense that should have noticed this more than it has.

[Stan]

It seems neither has Bradley Manning. Has it been established whether Manning has been before any court yet even for a remand?

Now if the "military justice" system does not require a process which a normal prosecution should follow (and seen to be fair to someone not yet found guilty of any crime) then the USG should accept that there is a danger that they could be making a martyr out of Manning (certainly in the eyes of the vocal political left).

JMA,
According to this DD Form 458, Manning has far more serious problems besides becoming a martyr

I sure hope he doesn't have issues with being around large furry males with low morals.

Sorry, couldn't help meself