Ivory Coast

[M-A Lagrange]

I do not want to play the cassandra but according to some IC specialist the Outtara forces offensive has been planed by US and/or French military with logistical support from Nigeria and Burkina Faso.

Sure visible boots on the ground are not a solution.

[Stan]

I do not want to play the cassandra but according to some IC specialist the Outtara forces offensive has been planed by US and/or French military with logistical support from Nigeria and Burkina Faso.

M-A,
We both said that would be happening and that once again means, we the West, have another puppet for say the next 10 years or so

African solutions with Western initiatives and money (to African problems)

[JMA]

It shouldn't be long now, M-A !

Right again Stan... well done. How come the "smart guys" never saw it coming?

[JMA]

[QUOTE=M-A Lagrange;118617]

Well, I still agree and support JMA statement. But that's because I'm cynical.

So we agree, but lets make sure we agree for the same reasons.

Can someone provide an example of where a totally African solution to an African problem has worked where its aim was governed by democratic and human rights concerns?

This is why I suggest that the actions in support of these so-called African solutions have had no altruistic motivation whatsoever.

Through neglect we now see an African solution taking place in the Ivory Coast (with the puppet strings being pulled by a few western powers). Note that the loss of life and the destruction of lives and livelihoods will be played down and how Africans solving their own problems will be hyped up. Hundreds of dead and a million displaced (and thats only the beginning) is in the eyes of some a small price to play to allow a problem to be solved the African way (through raping, looting and pillaging).

200% agree with you.

You really think the legacy after effects of a president being put into power (even if he is the rightful president) by a brutal, barbaric, often machete wielding ragtag army will be better than if the UN or France of even the US did so?

Journalist Monica Mark reporting out of Abidjan seems to have grasped the fundamental truth of the matter:

"Although Mr Ouattara has tried to distance himself from insurgents they have contributed with his rise to power and he has to grapple with those factions who want a slice of the pie for helping bringing him into power," Miss Mark said.

...and depending how much fighting is needed to dislodge Gbagbo they will demand a big slice of the pie. Long after the UN peacekeepers and/or the French/British/US troops are gone these thugs (because that's all they most often are) will be still around and flexing their muscles and keeping their machetes sharp.

These "problems" are best sorted out by short, sharp and extremely violent actions carried out before the various factions begin to recruit and arm their respective thug militias.

[Stan]

Can someone provide an example of where a totally African solution to an African problem has worked where its aim was governed by democratic and human rights concerns?

This is why I suggest that the actions in support of these so-called African solutions have had no altruistic motivation whatsoever.

Nope, but what I can do is swap Gbagbo for say Mobutu and some dates leaving the remainder of this report intact and you would in fact have the same CNN report from 65, 90, 95, 2003, 2006, etc., etc.

Mr Ouattara was internationally recognised as president last year

"I can still hear heavy gunfire and loud thud of mortar fire,"

President Gbagbo has not fled the country. He is on Ivory Coast territory, in a safe place from where he is organising and leading the resistance."

French forces say they have taken about 500 foreigners, including 150 French nationals, to a military camp after they were threatened by looters in Abidjan.

"There is a security vacuum and that has opened the way for looters to roam the streets,"

A Swedish woman working for the UN in Abidjan was killed by gunfire

news agency on Friday reported French officials as saying a teacher of French nationality had been shot dead

However, he retains the support of the Republican Guard

[JMA]

the US should go into the missile frigate rental business - in partnership with another "entity" that could put the boots on the ground needed to develop the real time intelligence to place those three or more missiles precisely on target.

What would an operation like that look like ? Seriously.

Regards

Mike

The operational implementation of this preemptive peacekeeping is the easy part.

The difficult part is the political will and the legal aspects (which has become the greatest excuse for inaction these days).

Such a strike needs to be carried out before the mass graves start filling up and because of that which politicians and which countries will have the balls to make the early call to take the bad-guy out? And even if some did how would one get consent from the UNSC for example or from the US Congress?

[M-A Lagrange]

JMA:

like others here, I've seen the result of african solution to african problems (Liberia and DRC to be precise). I think that african solutions are not good yet because of the leaders who sit around the table to discuss that solution, not because of Africa.
As I am also an hopless optimistic, I believe that the coming generation on the continent is less ready to leave crazy guy as Amin Dada take power.
Now the problem is to deal with all the people in western and asian capitals who believe that enlighted dictatorship with military control over economy is the key to stable Africa.

On the other hand, when I see the AU saying they will evaluate progress made by the government on Human Rights in DRC: I wonder if I should laught or cry.

Taking simply the kimberley process: with DRC as president, Zimbabwe diamond have been clean diamonds approved. Sure they are not coming from slave mines in Zim, they are blood diamonds from DRC and Angola...

And that's why Ivory Coast is important, despite the 800 civilians being assassinated by Outtara forces (a much lower nb than if Gbagbo had won the war). Ivory Coast is a turning point in Western Africa: now when a president is elected and recognised by the international community powers (That's the limit and grey area) then even african leaders have to back him up. Unlike in the past where it was dirty colonialism. It's a step in the right direction for the African people.
It's an imperative to support the fall of" Africa is different and cannot afford democracy mantrat".

[Bob's World]

And that's why Ivory Coast is important, despite the 800 civilians being assassinated by Outtara forces (a much lower nb than if Gbagbo had won the war). Ivory Coast is a turning point in Western Africa: now when a president is elected and recognized by the international community powers (That's the limit and grey area) then even african leaders have to back him up. Unlike in the past where it was dirty colonialism. It's a step in the right direction for the African people.
It's an imperative to support the fall of" Africa is different and cannot afford democracy mantrat".

External recognition is important for external considerations, but has little bearing on internal considerations. I guess my question would be, election aside, does the populace perceive that the election captured their will and do they recognize this leader as well?

Too often as the outsiders we help establish an election, it takes place, a victor emerges, is duly recognized by those external parties, and we all congratulate ourselves on bringing democracy to some dark corner of the planet. What is your assessment of how the populace feels about this? Are the rebels sore losers in an accepted process, or are they representatives of some significant segment of the populace who felt excluded from full and fair participation in the legal process?

[M-A Lagrange]

External recognition is important for external considerations, but has little bearing on internal considerations. I guess my question would be, election aside, does the populace perceive that the election captured their will and do they recognize this leader as well?

Too often as the outsiders we help establish an election, it takes place, a victor emerges, is duly recognized by those external parties, and we all congratulate ourselves on bringing democracy to some dark corner of the planet. What is your assessment of how the populace feels about this? Are the rebels sore losers in an accepted process, or are they representatives of some significant segment of the populace who felt excluded from full and fair participation in the legal process?

I'll be cynical but also I believe objective (the line is somehow difficult to draw in the red soil of Africa): does it really matter?
I the case of Ivory Coast, you have a group of rebels who are backing a president elected with more than 50% in a system that was designed to ensure 90% to the president!
So yes, thet do represent a fairly large portion of the population. And Yes their participation is not free from charges.

In comparaison, you have countries as Uganda with a facade pluri parti system and a president elected with 83% of the vote on 1st round. Well, in a country where if you wanna be a legal political party you have to be a non dissident branch of the presidential party... Does he really represent any body part from is tribe and few economic actors? I let you judge.

What is important is the fact that African Leades cannot hide behind the excuse of we are different now!
African people are human being living on Earth and as such they have the same right than others to cast a vote after a peaceful political campaign and their choice, what ever the arguments given, ethnical strings or what else, to be respected (both sides winners and loosers living in peace). And if not then there is first a ban by other african leaders then a military operation, supported by african leaders, to bring the process back in tracks.
And that does count!

I have seen too many governments and local illetrate leaders saying that in Africa what was important was the homogeneity of the community, that democracy brings divisions in the villages...
Well, I'm not an ethnograph or an anthropologist but I can tell you with 200% insurance that African village unity is a lie, just like african protocommunism. Just like everywhere else, in a village you have a community of people with various personnal objectives who do oppose on many things. Did that end up in wars? All the time? NO!
Let's face it: you are from US, Thailand, Australia, Ivory Coast, Zambia, Colombia... What counts it's your level of education to fully understand the process. The rest is just silly talk designed to preserve interrests.

And by the way, be carefull with legality. With good lawyers I can get you elected president dictator for life of what ever African poor subsaharian country. That will not mean that you, Bob, you will be legitimate. But it would be legal (and fair if they work well).

[carl]

Well, I'm not an ethnograph or an anthropologist but I can tell you with 200% insurance that African village unity is a lie, just like african protocommunism. Just like everywhere else, in a village you have a community of people with various personnal objectives who do oppose on many things.

I used to picture villages in the DRC as bucolic places of pastoral bliss until a passenger spent the length of an hour and a half flight telling me about village jealousies, plots, deceptions and how they would further these with plant products from the forest. Witch doctors are fine practical botanists. They specialize in untraceable poisons. It was scary.

[ganulv]

And that's why Ivory Coast is important, despite the 800 civilians being assassinated by Outtara forces (a much lower nb than if Gbagbo had won the war).

As with so many other things lately, the PRC scooped the West on this one. There were antecedents to the Duékoué killings (2005, 2011).

Well, I'm not an ethnograph or an anthropologist but I can tell you with 200% insurance that African village unity is a lie, just like african protocommunism. Just like everywhere else, in a village you have a community of people with various personnal objectives who do oppose on many things. Did that end up in wars? All the time? NO!

Small communities most everywhere are rife with tensions. Knowing everyone you see on an everyday basis isn’t all good (nor all bad, of course). In the Ivorian conflict there is additionally identity politics related to political enfranchisement. The roots of the Ivorian conflict lie in the way that Houphouët-Boigny allowed the circular migration pattern in operation under the French colonial authorities to continue and the way that his successors used migrants as the goat when Houphouët-Boigny left them holding the bag (in the form of an economic downturn).

[M-A Lagrange]

Small communities most everywhere are rife with tensions. Knowing everyone you see on an everyday basis isn’t all good (nor all bad, of course). In the Ivorian conflict there is additionally identity politics related to political enfranchisement.
The roots of the Ivorian conflict lie in the way that Houphouët-Boigny allowed the circular migration pattern in operation under the French colonial authorities to continue and the way that his successors used migrants as the goat when Houphouët-Boigny left them holding the bag (in the form of an economic downturn).

Gav,

Be carefull also to not fall in the other side pitt. Houphoet did not start his controversial concept of ivoirite under the french colonisation!
The french colonisation stopped in 1960 with a LAW at the french National Assembly drafted by Houphoet. (Who was a french deputy at that time with others like Sangor).

The ivoirite has been built by Houphoet as a copy cat of the nationalist politic concept on imigration in France in the 80 (Front National and the arabs). This was an idea which turned bad in both countries and worst in Ivory Coast. Talking of Outtara; Gbagbo used that concept to spoil him from running the elections as he questioned his nationality (Outtara used to be prime minister and ambassador anyways...).
You have the same in the US with conservative wings questioning Obama origines...

The problematic of rich countries with poorer neighbours is not a specific out come of colonisation. See the US and Mexico.
The instrumentalisation of it to play dirty politic neither.

French have a lot to do with Ivory Cost history but also give back to ceasar what belongs to ceasar. In 50 years, Ivorians have been able to develop their hown political concepts (which are sometime close to ours the westerners) but blaming the past is always an easy skeep goat.

[JMA]

JMA:

like others here, I've seen the result of african solution to african problems (Liberia and DRC to be precise). I think that african solutions are not good yet because of the leaders who sit around the table to discuss that solution, not because of Africa.

Yes I agree and I have referred to the AU as being a club for thieves and murderers who wish to perpetuate their "ownership" of their perspective countries rather than advance the well being of their peoples.

As I am also an hopless optimistic, I believe that the coming generation on the continent is less ready to leave crazy guy as Amin Dada take power.

OK that's fine, but leave the dreams to the next generation of Africans and let us deal with the current reality on the ground shall we?

Now the problem is to deal with all the people in western and asian capitals who believe that enlighted dictatorship with military control over economy is the key to stable Africa.

Well certainly China does not give a damn about human rights and like the colonial powers before will tend to go for stability in the supply of raw materials over democracy and freedom of the people in the various African countries. But before we lay the problem totally at the door of the "the people in western and asian capitals" we need to remember that the recent examples of military supported exploitation of DRC resources comes from Uganda and Zimbabwe.

On the other hand, when I see the AU saying they will evaluate progress made by the government on Human Rights in DRC: I wonder if I should laught or cry.

Yes I know the feeling well. But the really sad part about that is the western academics who nod their heads in agreement and suggest western governments should fund the whole exercise. These useful idiots sitting in universities all over the world have as much blood on their hands (indirectly) as the thugs who do the actual killing given the opportunity to do so through the insanely stupid foreign policies these so-called academics influence.

Taking simply the kimberley process: with DRC as president, Zimbabwe diamond have been clean diamonds approved. Sure they are not coming from slave mines in Zim, they are blood diamonds from DRC and Angola...

Well it is all a bit like Libya being on the UN Human Rights Commission. But the joke is on the West. You probably know how much the leaders of these Mickey Mouse countries laugh at the stupidity of the US and the West in these situations.

And that's why Ivory Coast is important, despite the 800 civilians being assassinated by Outtara forces (a much lower nb than if Gbagbo had won the war). Ivory Coast is a turning point in Western Africa: now when a president is elected and recognised by the international community powers (That's the limit and grey area) then even african leaders have to back him up. Unlike in the past where it was dirty colonialism. It's a step in the right direction for the African people.
It's an imperative to support the fall of" Africa is different and cannot afford democracy mantrat".

OK, this my view.

Ivory Coast is important for the precedent it sets in terms of elections. The plus is that the AU has accepted the result of the UN supervised elections and called on Gbagbo to stand down. So far so good. But thereafter unable to influence anything. Failed attempts at mediation and a hollow threat of military action. So the positive for Africa is that the AU stood firm in supporting the election result with the negative that they (collectively) failed to show any ability to deal with the impasse. It needs to be accepted that at this point in time the AU is unable to organise a party in a brewery. Good only (like the Arab League in the Libyan situation) for the odd resolution and beyond that absolutely nothing else.

The inability of the AU to support the election result with force if necessary and that together with little real effort through the UN who already had a peacekeeping force in place. So Ivory Coast was left to stew in its own juices until Quattara could wait no longer (or his forces were ready) and full blown hostilities broke out again.

So what is the message to the Likes of Kibaki in Kenya and Mugabe in Zimbabwe? Don't allow the UN to supervise the election because if it does not go your way the UN and possibly the AU will recognise the result. But somehow if it all goes pear-shaped nobody will have the interest or balls to raise a finger so they sort out the problem with their loyal forces. (African body counts don't worry anyone)

This cycle needs to be broken.

But who to "fix" the problem? Firstly, as discussed earlier, its all a bit too late in the day to do any more that force a ceasefire. The UN forces should be urgently increased to this end. Let the French lead the exercise.

Because the situation has been allowed to descend into violent civil war again and the reports of massacres on the ground it is clear that both Gagbo and Quattara must be prosecuted for war crimes. Violence must not be allowed to win.

So with both Gagbo and Quattara out of the picture standing trial in the Hague what will be the next step in the political process in the Ivory Coast?

[ganulv]

but those things involving opinion as well as the hypothetical future are of course less sure.

Houphoet did not start his controversial concept of ivoirite under the french colonisation!

I think actually that the whole concept was not Houphouët-Boigny’s but rather Bédié’s.

French have a lot to do with Ivory Cost history but also give back to ceasar what belongs to ceasar. In 50 years, Ivorians have been able to develop their hown political concepts (which are sometime close to ours the westerners) but blaming the past is always an easy skeep goat.

It’s not my intent to blame this situation wholly on the past—Côte d'Ivoire is very much its own place. Indeed, the French spoken in Abidjan is thought of by linguists as its own distinct variety, not a poor knock-off of a European language. But the situation would not take the shape it does today without previous events. To say that

[t]he problematic of rich countries with poorer neighbours is not a specific out come of colonisation. See the US and Mexico.

misses some particularities. Mexico has a long history of providing a source of labor to the United States but it has just as long a history of building its own foreign policy and industrial and agricultural base. The fact is that under the French Haute Volta and Mali provided the laborers and the wealth was created in Côte d'Ivoire. The population of what are now separate nations were part of a whole system—Haute Volta as an organizational institution did not even exist from 1932 to 1947, for example. Under Houphouët-Boigny this system did not cease to exist despite the new international borders. The UEMOA is one reflection of this. It was only after HB’s death that some Ivorian politicians began to forward the idea of much firmer borders and inclusion based upon a newly circumscribed citizenship.

So with both Gagbo and Quattara out of the picture standing trial in the Hague what will be the next step in the political process in the Ivory Coast?

The guy who ends up on the loosing side might (if he lives to see the end of the conflict). But I don’t know of an analogous case where the leaders of both sides of a conflict are brought to trial for HR abuses. And I don’t know if bringing even one of them to the Hague would be good for the future of Côte d'Ivoire. To paraphrase Mahmood Mamdani, some advocate for victors’ justice when survivors’ justice is more workable and humane. To insist upon prosecution when it is unclear as to whether it would not just contribute to continued instability seems decidedly unjust to the survivors of a conflict. Each situation is its own, however, and time will of course tell how such things play out in the Ivorian situation.

[M-A Lagrange]

I think actually that the whole concept was not Houphouët-Boigny’s but rather Bédié’s.

Unfortunately, I think I can say without mistaking too much that t was introduce by Houphouet with the advice of Francois Mitterant. The idea was to undermine the right wing by empowering the extrem right. A stupid idea that's blowing up in the face of the 2 countries. Hopefully not in the same manner.

It’s not my intent to blame this situation wholly on the past—Côte d'Ivoire is very much its own place. Indeed, the French spoken in Abidjan is thought of by linguists as its own distinct variety, not a poor knock-off of a European language. But the situation would not take the shape it does today without previous events. To say that

Agreed

misses some particularities. Mexico has a long history of providing a source of labor to the United States but it has just as long a history of building its own foreign policy and industrial and agricultural base. The fact is that under the French Haute Volta and Mali provided the laborers and the wealth was created in Côte d'Ivoire. The population of what are now separate nations were part of a whole system—Haute Volta as an organizational institution did not even exist from 1932 to 1947, for example. Under Houphouët-Boigny this system did not cease to exist despite the new international borders. The UEMOA is one reflection of this. It was only after HB’s death that some Ivorian politicians began to forward the idea of much firmer borders and inclusion based upon a newly circumscribed citizenship.

The same as for US and Mexico. They were first welcome:je suis planteur, could say a lot of Ivorian who were employing them in the 80 and early 90. Then came divers economical crisis and domesticpolitical crisis which lead to the split of relations between Burkina Faso (Haute Volta is a little too colonial and not enugh communist revolutionary for me) and Ivory Coast. Remember that Blaise Compaore was first of all a good friend of Houphouet and Mitterant (he killed his camarade Thomas Sankara for them).

The guy who ends up on the loosing side might (if he lives to see the end of the conflict). But I don’t know of an analogous case where the leaders of both sides of a conflict are brought to trial for HR abuses. And I don’t know if bringing even one of them to the Hague would be good for the future of Côte d'Ivoire. To paraphrase Mahmood Mamdani, some advocate for victors’ justice when survivors’ justice is more workable and humane. To insist upon prosecution when it is unclear as to whether it would not just contribute to continued instability seems decidedly unjust to the survivors of a conflict. Each situation is its own, however, and time will of course tell how such things play out in the Ivorian situation.

There is only justice of the mightiest: that's the root principle of monopoly of violence by the state and then rule of law. It is acceptable because the mightiest has legitimacy of popular support as it is the state and it garanties you rights against the acceptance of a punishment for those who do not observe the law.
After... then join JMM and me in the vine degustation club that we have to form to discuss science fictional justice and legal implementation of the concept of Just.

[jmm99]

from MAL
There is only justice of the mightiest: that's the root principle of monopoly of violence by the state and then rule of law. It is acceptable because the mightiest has legitimacy of popular support as it is the state and it garanties you rights against the acceptance of a punishment for those who do not observe the law.

Formation of a "vine degustation club" is a no brainer.

Cheers

Mike

[M-A Lagrange]

OK, I was a little upset.
I'm actually working on the problematic of justice in an another african country and getting up set by the over focalisation of US on effect of no justice and support to the victimes.
Knowing perfectly that it's the concept of compensation of victims coming from the roman law that is the base of modern international humanitarian law drafted by grotius.
Sometimes, you just realise that the execution of the law by the state is bound to the will and capacity of the state. And that a justice dedicated and driven only by victims rights is just not applicable and even the worst legal solution.

[jmm99]

Your analysis seems to follow Weber + Foucault concepts of the state - as interpreted, of course, by Legrange.

Foucault BTW wasn't a bad prophet - writing about the 1979 Iranian Revolution, but looking at militant Islam in general:

As an Islamic movement, it can set the entire region afire, overturn the most unstable regimes, and disturb the most solid. Islam which is not simply a religion, but an entire way of life, an adherence to a history and a civilization, has a good chance to become a gigantic powder keg, at the level of hundreds of millions of men. . . Indeed, it is also important to recognize that the demand for the “legitimate rights of the Palestinian people” hardly stirred the Arab peoples. What it be if this cause encompassed the dynamism of an Islamic movement, something much stronger than those with a Marxist, Leninist, or Maoist character? (“A Powder Keg Called Islam”)

Of course, gigantic powder kegs sometimes take a long time to blow - 1848 Europe blew some ca. 1918 and more ca. 1938-1948.

Moving to your justice of the mightiest, that is a logical extrapolation of Weber's "State" having the "monopoly on the legitimate use of violence".

For example, taking the UN, the Big Five (US, UK, France, Russia, China) have a huge amount of potential power as the permanent UNSC members - if they ever decided to work together. Even if we are spared that example of giantism, any one or more of them can impose its own "justice" on the lesser species - so long as one of the others does not block the actors (e.g., USSR was absent when Korea was voted; and, of course, the Russian and Chinese abstentions currently).

Admittedly, Grotius and Roman Law are a big deal in the historical development of I Law - as well as in the national systems of Code Law. But, would you want to time travel back and live under Pax Romanum, whether Western, Eastern or Unified ? I'd rather the Barbarians and their relative insecurity (which to me ='d more freedom and adaptability).

Regards

Mike

PS: For the last year or so, my wife has had a love affair with the Merlots and Cabernet Sauvignons of Double Dog Dare Cellars (Ripon CA). Not a bad red table wine. I think she's more in love with the name and the dogs:



Just to dispel any thoughts that the "vine degustation club" will not include Barbarian products.

[Backwards Observer]

Outrage over Ivory Coast killings.

At least 1,000 Christians were slaughtered this week in at the Salesian Saint Teresa of the Child Jesus mission in Duekou, Ivory Coast by Muslim troops loyal to Alassane Ouattara. The state-run media has been slow to report the facts.

Muslim troops slaughter 1000 Christians in Ivory Coast - gatewaypundit - 4/3/11

+++

“It is now clear, based on U.N. reports coming from Cote d’Ivoire, that mass killings have occurred at the hands of Alassane Ouattara,” Inhofe said. “This calls into question his legitimacy to lead that country. Ouattara is on a rampage, killing innocent civilians, and he must be stopped before this becomes another Rawanda.
“The United States must call for an immediate ceasefire to prevent Ouattara and his rebel army from committing a mass slaughter of the Ivorians, especially the many youth with sticks and baseball bats, who are protecting Gbagbo at the presidential palace.

Senator Inhofe calls for Cote d'Ivoire Hearings after mass slaughter - favstocks.com - 4/3/11

+++

“I am probably the most knowledgeable person about Africa in the U.S. Senate,” Inhofe wrote to Clinton.
Inhofe sometimes has framed his interest in Africa in religious terms, once calling it “a Jesus thing,” and he told The Oklahoman two years ago that he first went to the continent at the urging of Doug Coe, the longtime organizer of the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington.
Gbagbo and his wife are evangelical Christians. Ouattara is Muslim.

Inhofe won't step in on dispute - newsok.com - 4/4/11

+++

In previous Ivory Coast killings news.

Bloody Thursday

What was supposed to be a peaceful march ended up as a bloodbath on Thursday March 3, 2011. During an all female protest organised in Abobo, a pro-Ouattara district of economic capital Abidjan, seven women were shot dead, apparently by Gbagbo's national Defense and Security Forces.

Cote d'Ivoire: Who Killed the Seven Women Protesters? - videos - globalvoicesonline.org - 3/4/11

Here's a question: is that a couple bursts of 14.5mm fired from the BTR-80(?) into the unarmed women in the first video? Sounds heavy caliber.

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Matthew 25:31-46 - biblegateway.com

What a f***ing mess.

[Backwards Observer]

If I recall correctly, Council Member William F. Owen has elsewhere stated that a close reading of The Prussian reveals that morality is whatever furthers your policy. The brutal and 'beam-challenged' reality of this is becoming plain to see. See you in the hot place, Seamus.