Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
I believe that the majority position on ideology is biased by the natural tendency to avoid responsibility on the part of a government for rebellions within their own populaces ,or the populaces they seek to subjugate through colonization or some similar control and influence. I also believe it is a position that blinds governments to effective prevention and leads to greater human suffering than if they took a more responsible approach to governance. But I recognize I am out in front on this, and also that I may be out in front because I am headed in the wrong direction. But I don't think I am.
Bob-

Do you really think that Al Qaeda would change it's stripes if we withdrew from the Middle East and every dictator was thrown out? It has nothing to do with governance - it has to do with the fact that they believe in a global caliphate run on the principles of Islamic law - and they believe that this is a religious duty. I don't care how good of a democracy you have, these folks won't change their tune.

You have to admit that there are people out there leading many of these groups who have vested interests in finding grievances with their governments - it gives them their power, which is all many of these folks really want.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that good governance doesn't help prevent/combat insurgencies. But the idea that it is governance will solve everything, or that governments are THE cause of insurgencies, ignores the many sources of discontent, not all of which are in the government's control. The truth, as usual, is probably somewhere in the middle, not at any extreme.

The one aspect of this that may be true is the people's perceptions. Folks have a very Hollywood view of democracy, the US, and the West. When we roll in to assist or "democracy" takes over, people expect that things will instantly get better- ignoring our own 200+ year struggle to get it right. So in some sense those perceptions may affect the outcome.

Finally, I am a little tired of having my arguments dismissed on the basis of "bad data". If you think I am wrong, then cite some sources to back up your argument. I have cited numerous articles in my discussions. Your dismissal of other people's arguments based on your "being out front" smacks of the exact hubris that you are accusing the majority of the west of having - the sense that you are right and know better than everyone else. I know it's probably not intentional but it makes it a loss less fun to have these discussions with you.

V/R,

Cliff