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Thread: Arizona Rep. Giffords' shooter called very disturbed.

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    Council Member IntelTrooper's Avatar
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    Default Arizona Rep. Giffords' shooter called very disturbed.

    Gabrielle Giffords, Arizona congresswoman, shot in Tucson

    Democrat Gabrielle Giffords is in critical condition after a gunman opened fire at a meet-and-greet at a supermarket. Six are dead, including a 9-year-old girl and a federal judge, and at least 12 others are injured.
    Meanwhile, a federal source said a suspect was in custody and identified him as Jared L. Loughner, 22, a U.S. military veteran who served in Afghanistan. The gunman reportedly fired a pistol with an "extended magazine," the source said.
    This is a horrible tragedy.
    "The status quo is not sustainable. All of DoD needs to be placed in a large bag and thoroughly shaken. Bureaucracy and micromanagement kill."
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    "We are unlikely to usefully replicate the insights those unencumbered by a military staff college education might actually have." -- William F. Owen

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Link to an article about what her former opponent did before the election.


    http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/08/gi...elle-giffords/

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    Council Member IntelTrooper's Avatar
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    Default

    Maybe one of the mods can amend the title of the thread:

    Man linked to Giffords shooting called 'very disturbed'


    First Sgt. Brian Homme, who oversees Army recruiting in Tucson, said Loughner applied to enlist in December 2008 and was sent to Phoenix to take a test and physical. But “he was found to be unqualified so he never joined the Army,” Homme said.

    He declined to say why Loughner was rejected, citing confidentiality laws.
    Thank God.
    "The status quo is not sustainable. All of DoD needs to be placed in a large bag and thoroughly shaken. Bureaucracy and micromanagement kill."
    -- Ken White


    "With a plan this complex, nothing can go wrong." -- Schmedlap

    "We are unlikely to usefully replicate the insights those unencumbered by a military staff college education might actually have." -- William F. Owen

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Didn't do him any good apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Link to an article about what her former opponent did before the election.
    I didn't even know Hamsters could write...

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    What kind of people get influenced by stuff like this?


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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default The Thread Topic is the Gifford shooting.

    This is not a political discussion board. Let's keep it on topic, please.

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    Small Wars Journal SWJED's Avatar
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    Default Back on Original Topic

    Army: Ariz. Shooter Tried to Enlist but was Rejected - Army Times

    An Army spokesman said that Loughner attempted to enlist in Dec. 2008 but was rejected. The spokesman, citing the Privacy Act, could not discuss why Loughner was rejected.

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Lone Wolf or Lone Wolves

    The spectre of individual or loner direct action has been around for a long time, often called the 'Lone Wolves' or Lone Attackers by analysts.

    See this recent commentary:http://raffaellopantucci.com/2010/12...one-attackers/

    What motivates such people remains elusive; much of the commentary I've seen concentrates on the internet's role in radicalisation and preachers of hatred.

    The comments by the local Sheriff no doubt will echo around for awhile:
    We have become the capital, the mecca for prejudice and bigotry.
    Link to Sheriff's press conference:http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2...g+For+Arizona)
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Link to an article about what her former opponent did before the election.

    http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/08/gi...elle-giffords/
    Marines and firearms. It's basically terrorism!
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    What motivates such people remains elusive; much of the commentary I've seen concentrates on the internet's role in radicalisation and preachers of hatred.
    Raises the question, is it useful to consider "lone wolf" assassins a class of criminal apart? Do we entertain such categorical notions when considering other kinds of criminals, even narrowed down to just murderers?

    The comments by the local Sheriff no doubt will echo around for awhile:

    Link to Sheriff's press conference:http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2...g+For+Arizona)
    They've been echoing for longer than that, along with the typical appeals to the ephemeral roots of homeland violence in:
    1. video games,
    2. heavy metal and gangsta rap, and
    3. pot.

    Your mileage may vary in how useful these "observations" are.
    PH Cannady
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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Q&a

    Presley commented / asked:
    Raises the question, is it useful to consider "lone wolf" assassins a class of criminal apart? Do we entertain such categorical notions when considering other kinds of criminals, even narrowed down to just murderers?
    With murders and sex crimes notably we do - in the UK - and have borrowed the adjective from the FBI IIRC of 'serial murderers' etc. It is a fact that some criminal suspects specialise in their targeting, such as bogus callers on the elderly. There is a clear difficulty in defining and establishing predictability and the political need, notably with terrorism, to pre-empt such behaviour.
    davidbfpo

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    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    The writing and You Tube posts are more typical of someone with schizophrenia than with any specific political leanings. Whatever "radicalized" him was a product of his own mental condition, and had no connection to the external world beyond seizing on certain terms that he took out of context and fit into his delusions. There isn't anything useful to be learned from trying to fit this mentally disturbed spree killer into the category of terrorist.
    Last edited by J Wolfsberger; 01-09-2011 at 03:42 PM.
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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Default It Was An Assassination

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    This is not a political discussion board. Let's keep it on topic, please.
    Ken,I understand why you put that up but IMO it was an assassination not a murder so politics plays a part. Including the fact that the victim was alarmed by the very poster that is displayed in the previous post along with all the violent rhetoric associated with it. You will find that the shooter followed the basic research established by the Secret Service.


    Link to Secret Service study on Assassination.
    http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/ntac_jfs.pdf
    Last edited by slapout9; 01-09-2011 at 04:07 PM. Reason: link

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Wolfsberger View Post
    The writing and You Tube posts are more typical of someone with schizophrenia than with any specific political leanings. Whatever "radicalized" him was a product of his own mental condition, and had no connection to the external world beyond seizing on certain terms that he took out of context and fit into his delusions. There isn't anything useful to be learned from trying to fit this mentally disturbed spree killer into the category of terrorist.
    Jay, that it is part of what is used to determine the threat level of a possible assassin.

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    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    I don’t believe he was the intended target, but the chief federal judge in Arizona killed in the attack. Federal judge’s can receive a lot of death threats, but only 6 (including this one) have been murdered in US history; last one was in 1989.


    Trivia Question:
    The father of which movie and sitcom star, was an organized crime affiliated hit-man who shot and killed US District Judge John Wood (aka: "Maximum John") in 1979?

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I said shooting, that encompasses both murder and /or assassination.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Ken,I understand why you put that up but IMO it was an assassination not a murder so politics plays a part.
    Not a problem with your link -- to which I responded with a feeble attempt at humor -- but over the follow on post that displayed the graphic and asked who might be influenced by it. Your post introduced the political angle but it was in keeping with the thread; the other post IMO left the thread and asked a broad political question not particularly appropriate to this board.

    As for politics playing a part, they may or may not and if they do the likelihood of particularly skewed variants of political beliefs would appear to be probable. Howsomeever, we can always make standing broad jumps at conclusions... . Grand ol' American pastime...
    Including the fact that the victim was alarmed by the very poster that is displayed in the previous post along with all the violent rhetoric associated with it...
    She apparently was or she mentioned that 'alarm' as a political tactic -- we cannot know. Her Father blames the "Tea Party" (LINK). While my assessment is that statement by him is rather a stretch, I certainly cannot know what is in his mind and I'm not about to second guess him...

    Early days and not enough information to make much of an assessment IMO. Regardless, this is still not a political discussion board so only those political aspects directly appropriate to the topic at hand and based on fact rather than supposition or speculation should ideally be added to discussions.

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Violence and politics between states is not always war; similarly politically motivated violence with a state is not always insurgency or even Anarchy.

    Such events do, however, need to be looked at carefully as a single puzzle piece, a single data-point that helps to assess the overall relationship between a populace and its government. These things are best addressed early, and it is by taking each serious, but not over reacting to any, that such analysis and course corrections can be made by government.

    I suspect this guy is a couple of standard deviations out of any such plotting of events that would indicate the relationship between the US people and their government. There are rumblings out there though, and to disregard them until they explode in major ways is folly.

    It is times like this that the rock, the core, our contract between the American people and their government is so important. That, of course, is our Constitution. There is little popular support for actions such as this man's, be he just a disturbed individual, or a committed Anarchist. 100 years ago there was a rash of such actions in the West leading up, and into WWI. Trust and protect the Constitution and this too shall pass, and beware any in government that suggest that it is changes to the Constitution that will lead us forward.

    In many other countries, (many that we call friends and protect from internal and external challenge), there is no such trusted contract between the people and their government. Those places have far more to be concerned about from such events than the U.S. does.

    One can't separate politics and warfare. Paying attention to the acorns of discontent helps avoid dealing with the Oaks of war.
    Last edited by Bob's World; 01-09-2011 at 06:22 PM.
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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Not a problem with your link -- to which I responded with a feeble attempt at humor -- but over the follow on post that displayed the graphic and asked who might be influenced by it.
    OK, I get it now

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default That's true...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Violence and politics between states is not always war; similarly politically motivated violence with a state is not always insurgency or even Anarchy...One can't separate politics and warfare. Paying attention to the acorns of discontent helps avoid dealing with the Oaks of war.
    Can't separate 'em -- but one should also take care not to conflate an acorn into a pumpkin.

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    The "very disturbed" and the political are 100% overlapping here. Beyond any rational doubt.

    From the AP story today:

    "Giffords has drawn the ire of the right in the last year, especially from politicians like Sarah Palin over her support of the health care bill."

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNET1H6AEP.DTL

    Sharron Angle, last year's Tea Party Queen in the Senatorial elections, babbled about "Second Amendment remedies" for her opponents.

    That's the environment in which this occurred. The sequellae includes the SarahPac ad with rifle sites, naming Giffords as a functional target.

    Giffords' tea party opponent in the 2010 election had "shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly" in his internet and print ads. Scrubbed now from the web page.

    Who responds to material like that?

    The manifest mental illness of the perp obviously highlights the political content. Both at the macro level, and at the individual candidate level, the right wing pursued explicit behavior which would agitate the unstable.

    The more you focus on "disturbed", the more you have to examine what is likely to trigger a disturbed person.

    Tort definition of intent: you INTEND the likely consequences of your acts.

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