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Thread: Arizona Rep. Giffords' shooter called very disturbed.

  1. #41
    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    ... the "leftist" description originates from Fox news and was criticised for being partisan propaganda. [/I]
    The "leftist" description actually originated from class mates asked about his political beliefs. Their coverage has been along the lines of: his political beliefs aren't relevant since he's obviously severely mentally ill.
    John Wolfsberger, Jr.

    An unruffled person with some useful skills.

  2. #42
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    It was of course a very disturbing attack, and I hope that the wounded and the families of the victims overcome their physical and mental wounds.

  3. #43
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Wolfsberger View Post
    Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

    What are the protocols?
    How did they break down in this instance?
    How should they be changed?
    How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?
    Here is the Bible as far as I am concerned, other than that it is largely a funding issue. Link to Protective Intelligence and Threat Assessment Investigations a guide for LE.

    http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/170612.pdf

  4. #44
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Link to Real News Editorial about how civility is not much of a solution but some evidence based honest deliberation would go a long way.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk9MnTsniiI&feature=sub

  5. #45
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    A Very American Conspiracy Theory
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...heory?page=0,0

  6. #46
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Default The Rings of Violence

    Link to my 5 rings analysis of violence under the leadership ring you will see Father. It was recently announced that the Father was in some type of dispute with the son over a black bag just before the shooting. The bag was later located with extra ammunition in it.

    http://smallwarsjournal.com/document...ystems-map.pdf

    Check out how many of the elements will be present in this case.

  7. #47
    Council Member Kevin23's Avatar
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    Default Notion of this crime being politically motivated

    I notice many people in this thread still think that Jared Lee Loughner's crime was a politically motivated in some way, especially by the sometimes flaming rhetoric of present day American politics. However, not to be harsh or offensive to anyone but this notion has been soundly put to rest as the reason behind the shooting that take place about week ago, because Loughner according to both his friends and other reports didn't pay attention to the news or political talk of any persuasion as he only payed attention to oddball conspiracy websites. Not anything with obvious political motivations like mentioned in the media or throughout this particular thread.

  8. #48
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin23 View Post
    I notice many people in this thread still think that Jared Lee Loughner's crime was a politically motivated in some way, especially by the sometimes flaming rhetoric of present day American politics. However, not to be harsh or offensive to anyone but this notion has been soundly put to rest as the reason behind the shooting that take place about week ago, because Loughner according to both his friends and other reports didn't pay attention to the news or political talk of any persuasion as he only payed attention to oddball conspiracy websites. Not anything with obvious political motivations like mentioned in the media or throughout this particular thread.
    It was politically motivated from the standpoint that his target was a national politician and because of that it is a "fact" that politics played some part in his motivation but it was not the primary or most important part of his motivation. It was not politically motivated from the standpoint of trying to overthrow the government or advance the cause of some particular political ideology.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Wolfsberger View Post
    Arizona law does prohibit selling firearms to the mentally ill. But they need to be identified in the system for the law to work. Jared Loughner's behavior gave plenty of warning to students and faculty at the community college. There were, reportedly, incidents with law enforcement intervention at his home. That was what prompted my question to Slap about protocols for identifying and dealing with the mentally ill. The relevance to SWC is that the sociopathy and/or fanaticism that lead to terrorism often give plenty of warning signals as well. Maybe the topics for discussion should be:

    What are the protocols?
    How did they break down in this instance?
    How should they be changed?
    How should they be extended to identify the truly dangerous without curtailing the freedom of ordinary citizens?
    I think all states have laws that will allow them to prevent weapons sales to the mentally ill. They all also have laws allowing some level of non-consensual restraint of the mentally ill if they present some danger to themselves or others.

    Let me be very clear, in many jurisdictions those laws are nearly meaningless. I've had to deal with a mentally ill relative for years, I have way too much personal experience with the gawping inadequacies of various state systems to believe very many of them have their acts together. Most do not. Even Virginia is backsliding, which is particularly stupid given it's proximity to Wash. DC.

    It's only when the mentally ill kill the rich & powerful, or a whole lot of regular lower net worth people at one time, or the young in a group, that anyone considers doing anything serious about problems they've made with how they deal with mentally ill in their communities. I am both unsurprised by the events in Arizona, and I expect more of the same elsewhere. Community mental health is a *favorite* target of GOP politicians everywhere, and it's one of the first things on the block whenever anyone wants to tighten the belt. Communities care more about the grass getting cut at their children's parks than they do about their fellow citizens dying from mental illness. Sadly though when mentally ill people get violent they kill other people besides themselves. Like many of the other thoroughly ignored facts (Hello President McKinley) surrounding the issue of weapons and sick people, we're just going to keep doing what we've been doing.

    The problem in this instance is not one of some type of weapon, rather it's literally a biological issue with the species that we are not handling well.

    To give an example, I know without even doing hard comparisons (because I know about the state's 3 strike pizza culture) that it's way easier to get someone locked up in California for stealing a slice of pizza than it is to get them detained for being a threat to themselves or others.

    The laws are a patchwork, and rather than being advocates & providing guidance about weapons regulation & the mentally ill, the NRA's so vicious about the 2nd amendment that no one's going to take this on. Yes, there's an obvious roaring dichotomy between a person who owns a weapon and cares about being responsible with it who then becomes *biologically ill* in such a manner that they can no longer be responsible, who then becomes the very sort of threat the NRA likes to rail against.

    I could spend no end of days writing about all the totally awful behavior I have seen from courts and communities. Bad behavior in various `systems' is far more remarkable than any of the tinfoil wearing crazyness I've seen when I've visited my relative on nut wards.

    People are kidding themselves if they think this will get fixed in any way. I expect more of the same. I'd recommend that anyone bothering to read this do the same. I predicted the VA Tech event fairly reliably, so I've got some reasonable basis to assert further negative outcomes.

  10. #50
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    anonomatic, that was very well said IMO.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    anonomatic, that was very well said IMO.
    Thanks, this is a hard topic for me to write about. It's one colored by a lot of very ugly experiences in more than one state. There is a difference between how we wish things would be with respect to our political ideas, and the reality of how things are for us as a species.

    People spouting off politically does have consequences, and it doesn't matter who is doing it, or what their motivation is, abstracted from any political framework the use of violent language has very predictable results. It is not at all responsible behavior on the part of any leader, and people are both right to question it's use, and to condemn it as well.

    Politics is however is a separate issue than what we choose to do to deal with the problem of mental illness, and violent mental illness. If we ignore these problems, people die.

    I think this incident shows what happens with an inadequate public safety net, and the inadequate public education that goes with it. The `debate' that detractors want to engage in over this subject is rooted in a pattern of shame based societal ignorance that says it's ok to treat the mentally ill as societal refuse, & blame their actions on fictional moral failings of their own choice. Never mind any science that tells them otherwise when the ignorant conventional wisdom they've been relying on fails yet again...

  12. #52
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Default Descent Into Madness-60 Minutes Secret Service Interview

    Link to last nights 60 minutes interview of the Secret Service agent Bryan Vossekuil and Dr. Robert Fein. These two are the primary authors of the Secret Service manual on Protective Intelligence and Threat Assessments for LE. Dosen't get any better than this folks IMO.



    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...in;cbsCarousel

  13. #53
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    Looks like Loughner had Bush Derangement Syndrome.

    He became intrigued by antigovernment conspiracy theories, including that the Sept. 11 attacks were perpetrated by the government and that the country’s central banking system was enslaving its citizens. His anger would well up at the sight of President George W. Bush, or in discussing what he considered to be the nefarious designs of government.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us...gfYK5d56DmiDjg


    Loughner's brand of crazy was a Twinkie 35 feet long, weighing approximately 600 pounds.
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


    http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg

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