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Thread: Gangs and Insurgencies

  1. #21
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody Special View Post
    Awhile back I read a paper someone did from the War College I think that equated gangs to insurgencies and the similarities in the way they could be combated. If anyone knows of this paper or has any knowledge of other resoures please drop me a line. Any help or ideas would be appreciated. Thanks.
    The UK's view of the IRA and PIRA was basically that they were a well armed criminal gang, and to be treated as such.

    I think the idea of drawing parallels between the LA Cryps and say the RUF in Sierra Leone is a bit of a dead end that may be intellectually entertaining, but will deliver no actual insight.

    Is any US "Street Gang" in armed rebellion against the US Govt? Yes, No?
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  2. #22
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Is any US "Street Gang" in armed rebellion against the US Govt? Yes, No?
    Armed rebellion yes, Armed revolt no. Kinda like the Whiskey Rebellion and even that is a poor analogy, but close enough. They are against US Government laws but not specifically against the US Government in general.They really don't care who or what government is doing except as it impacts their gang business/lifestyle. They simply carve out a certain area where they can do their business and they use violence to essentially keep the government from coming into that area and enforcing certain laws. However I think gangs would certainly cooperate with a political insurgency if they were given the drug franchise for certain areas.

  3. #23
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    It would probably be even simpler than a franchising option: the actions of both groups would be symbiotic as they both divide and distract the security forces from each other...the real challenge to that relationship might come when the insurgents were established in an are as the 'government' and might find that the presence of criminals in 'their patch' now works against them...

  4. #24
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    Default SWC's "Dunbar Numbers"

    One might well question whether there is "The Dunbar Number", but here is a set of numbers from SWC.

    Members who have posted at least once after 31 Dec 2009 and have posted in total:

    50 or more - 145

    250 or more - 65

    500 or more - 42

    1000 or more - 31

    From "company-sized" to "platoon-sized".

    Regards

    Mike

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    Now ya see? This is why I feel uneducated and why I came here for info! Thank you all for the food for thought. My boss and I have been talking about all of this and have decided to put a plan together for the coming year. We're gonna be working business as usual for now but hopefully we'll get something hashed out that's workable. When I get a rough draft together, I'll pitch it to you guys and let you tear it apart. My belief is that it's always good to get out of the pool and go check how things are done elsewhere. Keep up the good fight guys.

    Nick

  6. #26
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody Special View Post
    Now ya see? This is why I feel uneducated and why I came here for info! Thank you all for the food for thought. My boss and I have been talking about all of this and have decided to put a plan together for the coming year. We're gonna be working business as usual for now but hopefully we'll get something hashed out that's workable. When I get a rough draft together, I'll pitch it to you guys and let you tear it apart. My belief is that it's always good to get out of the pool and go check how things are done elsewhere. Keep up the good fight guys.

    Nick
    Nick, if you can answer is this plan for inside or outside CONUS?

  7. #27
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    CONUS. Trying to work this within federal, state, county and local law should be interesting.

  8. #28
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    Default Missed opportunity?

    Nobody,

    Sorry for coming late to the party, but I think you may be missing an opportunity with your sex offenders. Many of them circulate in similar circles to and on the same social levels as your criminal gang elements. They may be a great source of information and their precarious legal status (registration, reporting, residence restrictions) can be exploited to make them good sources of information on criminal gangs. Back when I worked a beat, I used several of the local sex offenders as informal informants. I was always creeped out by talking to them, but their information was typically spot on.

    As for running them out of town, much research has been done on the spatial distribution of sex offenders and restricting their movements/residency requirements. Those programs have been shown to be unsuccessful mostly. I remember doing a location analysis showing areas in the city limits that were not within the 1000 feet of a childcare center, church, school or other place children frequent. The result was that sex offenders could live in about 5 areas, none of which were actually residential areas: either vacant fields or industrial parks.

    Just my two cents.
    Facta, non verba.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Smith
    ....I think you may be missing an opportunity with your sex offenders. Many of them circulate in similar circles to and on the same social levels as your criminal gang elements. They may be a great source of information and their precarious legal status (registration, reporting, residence restrictions) can be exploited to make them good sources of information on criminal gangs. Back when I worked a beat, I used several of the local sex offenders as informal informants. I was always creeped out by talking to them, but their information was typically spot on....
    Sex offenders is a broad category - and in such general terms I disagree with the statement that they circulate in similar circles to and on the same social levels as street gang members. Certain specific individuals may do so - but many will not, and live and function in circles very different and isolated from the world of street gang members. As usual, it comes down to a case-by-case assessment of location, access and reliability of the individual informant.
    Quote Originally Posted by C_Smith
    As for running them out of town, much research has been done on the spatial distribution of sex offenders and restricting their movements/residency requirements. Those programs have been shown to be unsuccessful mostly.
    CJB, May 10: Residential Proximity to Schools and Daycares: An Empirical Analysis of Sex Offense Recidivism

    Geography & Public Safety, May 09: Residency Restrictions: Whatís Geography Got to Do with It?

    NIJ, 25 Jul 08: Sex Offender Residency Restrictions: How Mapping Can Inform Policy

  10. #30
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    Default Still lurking these days. Will be interesting to watch Chicago now.*

    http://www.suntimes.com/5871162-417/...mpstat-meeting

    On Thursday, McCarthy introduced CompStat to Chicago. He was part coach and part interrogator as he quizzed commanders about crime in their districts and what they intended to do about it. He questioned narcotics and detective supervisors about how they’re supporting district commanders.
    ..........

    He also said he wanted narcotics investigators to focus on helping patrol officers shut down open-air drug markets. Narcotics Cmdr. Jim O’Grady pointed to one probe in Humboldt Park that closed such a market with the help of neighborhood leaders, forcing dealers to arrange their sales over the phone.

    McCarthy nodded approvingly. “We gotta fight this like a ground war,” he said. “Once we take territory, I don’t want to give it back.”

    McCarthy returned to his battle analogy when the discussion turned to the shooting of two girls — ages 2 and 7 — on Wednesday night on a Northwest Side playlot. The 2-year-old was grazed in the head, and the 7-year-old has a serious back wound. Two men were being held for questioning in the shooting, which apparently was targeting gang members nearby. McCarthy said the department must send a message to the Maniac Latin Disciples, who are thought to be responsible.

    “We’re going to obliterate that gang,” he said. “Every one of their locations has to get blown up until they cease to exist.”
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-10-2011 at 07:38 PM. Reason: Citation in quote marks

  11. #31
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    SecondCityCop has been following some of this stuff pretty well...to include the deflection by leadership of the "flash mob" issue.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  12. #32
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    A couple questions or issues with the concept of conducting psyops to break up gangs:

    1) How do you deal with the political fallout stemming from the increased inter- and intragang violence that is a likely result?

    2) How do you deal with the likelihood that such violence will affect more than just gang members?

    Regarding using such tactics on sex offenders, I really don't see how that's a good idea. You're taking someone whose ability to interact with society is already compromised in a way that makes them a proven danger to others, and reducing their ability to interact with society normally. Punishment is, ideally, supposed to reduce the likelihood of recidivism, not increase it.

  13. #33
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default SecondCityCop: if only

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    SecondCityCop has been following some of this stuff pretty well...to include the deflection by leadership of the "flash mob" issue.
    For a moment I thought the new Chicago Police commander was really talking, this is a classic:
    Garry McCarthy was asked about this during a press conference.

    McCarthy: Today we have a new plan of attack. I have been informed that there are several dozen officers currently assigned to the 311 or callback center. Many of these officers are facing discipline, some of this discipline for excessive force.

    We have identified these officers facing discipline and have assigned them to the downtown detail. Here is the plan. We are using our youngest looking female officers as decoys for these mobs. When a mob seems prone to attack, we will call in the former callback officers. When the mob attacks, these officers will attack the mob.

    We expect that this tactic will result in lawsuits. Many of these callback officers are borderline psychopaths. Still, businesses have agreed to pay a .1% 'combat-lawsuit' sales tax. Since we are prepared for the lawsuits, we have no reason to hold back. The callback combat unit will have no name tags. In fact, they will only wear black clothing with no police emblems. They will wear face masks. They wear gloves to cover their fingerprints. At the end of the summer all records of this unit will be burned. No case will be criminally prosecuted. In fact, we will not be making any arrests.

    We fully expect this problem will be solved after next weekend.
    Cited whole as unable to link to particular story in the blog:http://www.secondcitycop.blogspot.com/
    davidbfpo

  14. #34
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Bill Bratton addressing the issue of gangs and gang violence

    Bill Bratton, ex-NYPD & LAPD, has strong links with some in UK policing and has been over twice this year, once invited by an influential think tank, Policy Exchange and recently by the government to quickly offer help on gangs.

    The link is to his most recent thoughts:http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/pag...ngviolence.cgi

    Citing his time in LAPD:
    Prior to 2002 the focus and priority from gang and crime suppression had been on arrests and incarceration but in spite of that effort crime continued to grow. We learned the hard way that while arrests and punishment are an essential part of any gang and crime reduction strategy, you cannot arrest your way out of the plague of crime and violence. It didnít work and it entailed enormous costs.
    Near the end:
    I have learned throughout my 40-year career in law enforcement that cops count, police matter. Effective policing can deliver results, even if the desired funding is not always available. Addressing the problem of gangs, as with most crimes, requires effective and committed partnership between law enforcement agencies and the government. Police cannot fight crime on their own. Todayís world is a global one where success depends on collaboration, innovation and sharing the best ideas. Likewise I believe policing should be an open profession where ideas are freely exchanged.
    davidbfpo

  15. #35
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    Default Continuum

    I have previously postulated that it is a continuum and as sphere of control and sphere of influence grow the bad dude could develop greater ambition and confidence. I wrote a student paper IRT to this subject not sure i did a very good job on it but i will post it later.

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