Should Military Recognize State Concealed Carry Licenses

[DVC]

Hey DVC,



OK, I'll give it a break
So long as everybody completes the Army's (or equivalent service's) close quarters marksmanship course (and the heck with it, the LEOs all have to requalify too)



According to the FBI's safe distance tables you may want to make that 300 meters, deminer's helmet with visor, ear plugs optional and decent flack jacket

Take care... I'm off to dinner with my better half !

Jeff Cooper said danger, not variety, is the spice of life, so I'll take my chances if we get to meet.

I hope you both have a great dinner - how's the chow in Estonia?

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Does anybody remember when the custom of commissioned officers providing their own side arms fell out of fashion?

Not much discussion on this thread about Force Protection, or how increasing the numbers of habitually armed troops in CONUS garrisons improves the installation's Force Protection posture. Do CONUS garrisons face threats of similar magnitude as OIF/OEF FOB's? No, they don't. Having all the CONUS garrison troops armed as if they were deployed reeks of fear and makes Hassan's propaganda of the deed wildly successful.

Active-duty enlisted personnel should draw their government issue weapon from the arms room and carry it whenever performing duties the chain of command has determined are best accomplished while armed. Can't very well have the Other Ranks deciding for themselves which duties they will perform armed with their own private purchase concealed carry pieces and which duties they will perform unarmed.

[DVC]

Does anybody remember when the custom of commissioned officers providing their own side arms fell out of fashion?

Not much discussion on this thread about Force Protection, or how increasing the numbers of habitually armed troops in CONUS garrisons improves the installation's Force Protection posture. Do CONUS garrisons face threats of similar magnitude as OIF/OEF FOB's? No, they don't. Having all the CONUS garrison troops armed as if they were deployed reeks of fear and makes Hassan's propaganda of the deed wildly successful.

Active-duty enlisted personnel should draw their government issue weapon from the arms room and carry it whenever performing duties the chain of command has determined are best accomplished while armed. Can't very well have the Other Ranks deciding for themselves which duties they will perform armed with their own private purchase concealed carry pieces and which duties they will perform unarmed.

Canoneer #4 - a few questions for you:

1. Would honoring state CCWs on military installation reduce the FP posture of those installations?

2. Does the fact that American police are generally armed mean criminals in the U.S. are "wildly successful"?

3. Doesn't the average American expect his armed forces to be armed? Would that average American have preferred an outcome to the Hassan attack of a enlisted soldier drawing his CCW handgun and stopping Hassan to the 13 dead and 40 wounded of the actual event?

4. If you'd been at the Soldier Readiness Center at Fort Hood in the room in which Hassan initiated the attack, would you have preferred to be armed or unarmed?

5. Do you think we've seen the last of "lone wolf shooter" attacks on military installations?

[Cannoneer No. 4]

1. Honoring state CCWs on military installations could reduce the FP posture of those installations. Is the additional Antiterrorism/Force Protection rapid response capability afforded by soldiers carrying their own personal weapons concealed on post likely to result in more Hassan wannabes defeated or more soldiers killed or wounded by themselves or other soldiers?

2. The fact that American police are generally armed has nothing to do with whether active duty soldiers should be generally armed in garrisons in CONUS.

3a. I don't know what the average American expects. The American Armed Forces have a wide variety of machines with which to kill people and break things. Only the Army and Marine Corps arm most of their troops with individual weapons.

3b. Who really cares what the average American prefers? The Army is not a democracy.

4. If my preferences were a matter of major concern, I would prefer not to be there that day. Commanders decide where and when they want their troops armed. A disciplined force cannot allow large numbers of junior soldiers to pack their own privately-owned heat under their ACU's whenever they feel like it.

5. No. "Lone wolf shooter" attacks have always been rare, but not unknown. How rare are they, really, and how much nut roll should we go through to predict/prevent/mitigate them?

[DVC]

1. Honoring state CCWs on military installations could reduce the FP posture of those installations. Is the additional Antiterrorism/Force Protection rapid response capability afforded by soldiers carrying their own personal weapons concealed on post likely to result in more Hassan wannabes defeated or more soldiers killed or wounded by themselves or other soldiers? That is indeed the question. I again think it would take a lot of NDs or soldier criminality to cause 13 dead and 40 wounded, even across the whole military. I do not know the statistics for the current situation

2. The fact that American police are generally armed has nothing to do with whether active duty soldiers should be generally armed in garrisons in CONUS. My humble attempt at an analogy. Don't think AQAM would think it a good development for state CCW permits to be recognized on DoD installations. But to be honest, I have no evidence that AQ thinks of the issue at all

3a. I don't know what the average American expects. The American Armed Forces have a wide variety of machines with which to kill people and break things. Only the Army and Marine Corps arm most of their troops with individual weapons.

3b. Who really cares what the average American prefers? The Army is not a democracy. ? Whoa.... isn't this part of what a republic is all about? The Army isn't a democracy but it serves one. If Congress says DoD must recognize state CCWs as the NPS now does at National Parks and POTUS signs it, I bet many senior leaders will think it was a great idea all along.

4. If my preferences were a matter of major concern, I would prefer not to be there that day. Ok, why can't we all just get along? Commanders decide where and when they want their troops armed. Yep. A disciplined force cannot allow large numbers of junior soldiers to pack their own privately-owned heat under their ACU's whenever they feel like it. What is your support for this contention? Seems like saying " A disciplined force cannot allow large numbers of junior soldiers to own POVS ?"

5. No. "Lone wolf shooter" attacks have always been rare, but not unknown. How rare are they, really, and how much nut roll should we go through to predict/prevent/mitigate them? I think it was W.E.B. Griffin that said you only really need a handgun when you need it really bad

Mine in bold.

[Stan]

There are literally hundreds of links covering FP and Fort Hood. Having just recently performed FP for visiting Sailors and having tons of time on my hands to read through reams of regulations, I recommend some light reading on the current thread.

A very general overview placing blame and responsibility on the installation commander:

Military Operations
UNITED STATES ARMY TRAINING AND DOCTRINE COMMAND (TRADOC)
FORCE PROTECTION PROGRAM (FPP)

Stand-To
Fort Hood Army Internal Review Team
Scroll down to resources for the links

Interim Fort Hood Recommendations Approved

Then Army dot MIL
Protecting the Force: Lessons learned from Fort Hood

And DOD's independent review, which has some equally depressing and promising recommendations:

There's a every so slight recommendation revolving around Active Shooter Tactics and the lack thereof on bases. Sadly, the review concentrates more on identifying the threat and lack of communications as the problem.

[slapout9]

I grew up near a SAC Base in Orlando,Fl. in the late 50's early 60's. I don't exactly remember when they stopped doing it but as part of the Base protection policy a certain number of their officers were required to be armed with a handgun at all times regardless of their actual assignment for that day. Reason being was if the Commies (a real threat back then) tried to infiltrate the Base and take it over there would some means to slow them down until a proper response could be mounted. Maybe a better policy would be to bring back something along those lines? Just thinking out loud.

[DVC]

There are literally hundreds of links covering FP and Fort Hood. Having just recently performed FP for visiting Sailors and having tons of time on my hands to read through reams of regulations, I recommend some light reading on the current thread.

A very general overview placing blame and responsibility on the installation commander:

Military Operations
UNITED STATES ARMY TRAINING AND DOCTRINE COMMAND (TRADOC)
FORCE PROTECTION PROGRAM (FPP)

Stand-To
Fort Hood Army Internal Review Team
Scroll down to resources for the links

Interim Fort Hood Recommendations Approved

Then Army dot MIL
Protecting the Force: Lessons learned from Fort Hood

And DOD's independent review, which has some equally depressing and promising recommendations:

There's a every so slight recommendation revolving around Active Shooter Tactics and the lack thereof on bases. Sadly, the review concentrates more on identifying the threat and lack of communications as the problem.

Thanks Stan - hope the dinner went well. Appreciate the links. Have read most of the unclas .mil Fort Hood things I can get my hands on.

Obviously this CCW issue is only part, maybe a small part, of the question/solution (my view). But I think it is hugely important to soldier morale and warrior ethos. Besides the physical tragedy, some of the saddest things out of the Fort Hood incident were quotes of soldiers saying things like "at least if I was downrange (deployed) I could have defended myself."

[Stan]

Thanks Stan - hope the dinner went well. Appreciate the links. Have read most of the unclas .mil Fort Hood things I can get my hands on.

DVC,
Dinner at the Argentina was great ! Huge grilled tiger shrimps and 250 gr of beef tenderloin

Obviously this CCW issue is only part, maybe a small part, of the question/solution (my view). But I think it is hugely important to soldier morale and warrior ethos. Besides the physical tragedy, some of the saddest things out of the Fort Hood incident were quotes of soldiers saying things like "at least if I was downrange (deployed) I could have defended myself."

DOD's review showed some promise by at least recommending the active shooter program. Looking at both the LEO and Army reviews following attendance at the IMS Anti-Active Shooter Tactics course, this sounds like a step in the right direction without trying to simple mirror what is authorized off-post. I gather this training would probably serve the soldiers well in nearly any environment.

[DVC]

DVC,
Dinner at the Argentina was great ! Huge grilled tiger shrimps and 250 gr of beef tenderloin



DOD's review showed some promise by at least recommending the active shooter program. Looking at both the LEO and Army reviews following attendance at the IMS Anti-Active Shooter Tactics course, this sounds like a step in the right direction without trying to simple mirror what is authorized off-post. I gather this training would probably serve the soldiers well in nearly any environment.

Thanks Stan - sounds like a delicious dinner. I think the Israeli approach to active shooters has a lot of merit - did some training with the IDF on related problems.

Just to stir the pot a little - the IDF allows the rough equivalent of CCW of personal handguns for qualified NCOs and officers and, in my experience, tends to deal with active shooter situations as a team effort of all armed people (LEO, military, civilian) in the area responding as quickly as possible to the situation.

Does this track with your experience of the training?

[Stan]

Just to stir the pot a little - the IDF allows the rough equivalent of CCW of personal handguns for qualified NCOs and officers and, in my experience, tends to deal with active shooter situations as a team effort of all armed people (LEO, military, civilian) in the area responding as quickly as possible to the situation.

Does this track with your experience of the training?

The experience I had with IDF instructors in Africa was similar. Their training concentrated on a potential D-Day and the Zairian Special Presidential Division mimicked nearly every aspect save perhaps respecting innocent civilians

Out of curiosity I checked out the current regs for Israel regarding weapons and found this.

Firearms in Israel

Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
Hartford, WI 53027

Many have asked about the easy availability of firearms in the State of Israel, and whether or not they can bring their guns with them when visiting or settling there. Some have visited Israel, or have seen photographs of people walking the streets in Israel carrying firearms.Nearly everyone interested in the preservation of the Second Amendment in America points to Israel as proof of how ordinary citizens, armed and trained, are a deterrent to crime and terrorism. And it's true! However,a quick glance at the rigid gun laws in Israel will show that it has far stricter firearms laws than many people, including myself, previously thought. Enjoy reading the translation as much as I enjoyed translating the document!

In liberty,
Rabbi R. Mermelstein

[DVC]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011...ef=global-home

[Stan]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011...ef=global-home

Dude, this is a stretch, even for you

This is impressive though...

Still, a member of the U.S. House Homeland Security Committee, Rep. Patrick Meehan, said in Washington that it looked like a terrorist attack. The chairman of the subcommittee that focuses on terrorism and intelligence added he did not have all the facts yet and was still being briefed.

Now why would a rational person even say Sierra like that?

subcommittee that focuses on terrorism and intelligence

Not sure about the latter

Heh, he even tried to compare concealed carry rights to those States that recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards.

Since we probably will never get Germany to approve Florida State carry permits in Frankfurt while riding on buses Maybe we could get the Air Farce to participate in better force protection measures instead of piling onto buses, relatively on time, altercations with strange folks, etc.

[DVC]

Dude, this is a stretch, even for you

This is impressive though...



Now why would a rational person even say Sierra like that?



Not sure about the latter

Heh, he even tried to compare concealed carry rights to those States that recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards.

Since we probably will never get Germany to approve Florida State carry permits in Frankfurt while riding on buses Maybe we could get the Air Farce to participate in better force protection measures instead of piling onto buses, relatively on time, altercations with strange folks, etc.

Agreed on Germany recognizing U.S. CCWs. and I don't know anything about this shooting beyond the NYT piece. Should U.S.A.F.s crews carry (issue .gov) handguns? Probably be tough to get the countries they're traveling to to OK it. Seems like the European approach to violent crime is self defense is a no-go; better to be a compliant victim.

[DVC]

Agreed on Germany recognizing U.S. CCWs. and I don't know anything about this shooting beyond the NYT piece. Should U.S.A.F.s crews carry (issue .gov) handguns? Probably be tough to get the countries they're traveling to to OK it. Seems like the European approach to violent crime is self defense is a no-go; better to be a compliant victim.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-soldiers.html

[Stan]

Agreed on Germany recognizing U.S. CCWs. and I don't know anything about this shooting beyond the NYT piece. Should U.S.A.F.s crews carry (issue .gov) handguns? Probably be tough to get the countries they're traveling to to OK it. Seems like the European approach to violent crime is self defense is a no-go; better to be a compliant victim.

This whole scenario is puzzling. The German’s that patrol the airport are not some cheap private security apparatus and the conspicuous automatic weapons they carry mean business.

But yet, they were not paying much attention to the parking area surrounding a huge target. The Airmen were flying commercial and not permitted firearms… is going around. Huh ? Back in 2005 we flew from here to Frankfurt with our side arms and on the USAF transfer bus with us was an armed MP escort right up to our departure aircraft.

[DVC]

http://www.jcs.mil//content/files/20...pring_2011.pdf