True, but it doesn't prevent "moral" nations from suffering consequences when they do ill-advised or stupid things. The world isn't moral or immoral, it just is what it is.Originally Posted by carl
True, but it doesn't prevent "moral" nations from suffering consequences when they do ill-advised or stupid things. The world isn't moral or immoral, it just is what it is.
Pete: The physical world is neither moral or immoral, it is just what it is. But men and the affairs of men are moral or not.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Carl,
I appreciate your breathtaking trust and faith in the ability, capacity, and desire of the world's elected leaders and the existing political, economic, diplomatic, intelligence, and security systems in place to handle crisis's.
IMHO the Middle East is in the process of coming apart, similar to the fall of the Berlin Wall but with more bloodshed this time around. 'History does not repeat it itself but it rhymes' is attributed to Mark Twain and it is an apt description of what is occuring.
Last time around we were concerned about things going very badly as the old order of things were rearranged. Fortunately, the international community worked very hard, and we were all very lucky. Hopefully we all can do it again, however: today we also have the reconstruction of Japan (and it's potential default), the potential default and breakup of the EU, America's potential default, and the recovery of the international financial system to contend with in addition to the realignment of the Middle East.
I advise extreme caution, and further recommend that the GCC, the AU, the Arab League, and the EU take the lead on resolving Libyan issues. IMHO the US needs to keep it's powder dry, as there is more to come....
On a personal note, you and your family members are able to enlist in the military, join the DoS, USAID, sign on with an NGO, or corporation which operates in the middle east. It would be an educational and eye-opening experience regarding that part of the world and it would be an opportunity for you and yours to pitch in and help resolve the current and upcoming troubles. We can always use the help....
Steve
Sapere Aude
Surferbeetle:
Your good natured sarcasm is noted but I have no trust and faith in the ability of the world's leaders to handle crisis' at all. I have a little faith in our ability and good intentions sometimes. My mind has been irrevocably altered by looking at too many Norman Rockwell paintings I guess.
Your point that we must not get too entangled so we can do something else more important when it comes up it well taken. That is exactly the reason, I advocate "doing something" but only if a. it will have some actual effect and b. if it doesn't draw us in so deeply that we can't get out easily. The things I suggested seem to, to this forever a civilian, fulfill that criteria (as do some of the things suggested by JMA). There seems to be some disagreement with that position regarding effectiveness and our being able to limit involvement. So be it.
One thing I would like to clarify though is I am strongly against any kind of no fly zone or action that would be effectuated with Manned Aircraft Flying Over Libya. That would get us into the whole very weird American cultural dynamic of airplanes, pilots, SEAD and all the other things that go with it. When manned airplanes get involved our eyes sort of glaze over and then the whole thing does go on autopilot to points unknown.
As you say, we were very lucky the last time things fell apart. But we actually took a side the last time and I think that had an effect in things coming out like they did. We may have to consider taking a side this time, at least to a small extent. Right now I don't know exactly what we are doing. Whatever it is may be the right thing, but I am starting to think we are not going to be able to turn the stampede.
The GCC (what does that stand for?), the AU, the EU et al taking the lead would be the best thing of course. Of course, they being completely ineffectual organizations, they won't take the lead on anything. The wait for them may be a long one.
Turn about is fair play I guess. I used exactly the same line on Motorfirebox. I don't have much influence on my family. They look at me very strangely when I encourage them along these lines. As for myself, I've tried to do my bit and will again if able; though I don't know how useful my efforts have been.
Last edited by carl; 03-15-2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason: I forgot something.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
The GCC stands for Gulf Cooperation Council, and they're already deploying troops to Bahrain to help contain/crush/defend against a much less violent protest movement. Not so ineffectual when they really want to move - they're just not moving in the direction of liberalism.The GCC (what does that stand for?), the AU, the EU et al taking the lead would be the best thing of course. Of course, they being completely ineffectual organizations, they won't take the lead on anything. The wait for them may be a long one.
Ken:
I figure if you ask the question: Can a man's actions be moral or immoral? The answer will be yes. To the question: Can a group of men's actions be moral of immoral? I would say yes. By extension then a large group of humans action's can be moral or immoral ergo a nation's actions can be moral or immoral. In theory anyway. Things can get complicated when judging the actions of individuals comprising that nation state because of coercion, social dynamics etc.
You disagree that nations can be judged moral or not. We have a pretty fundamental disagreement then and it will probably not be resolved easily or here.
Back to Libya though. There was a twitter a few minutes ago by Galrahn to the effect that the Libyan rebels have been joined by jets of the Free Libyan Air Force. If that is true the whole question about a no fly zone may be moot. I wonder if we are doing something completely unseen to get those jets into action.
P.S. Thank you sir. It is well appreciated.
Last edited by carl; 03-15-2011 at 04:18 PM. Reason: I made a mistake.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Qaddafi Forces Seize Another Rebel Stronghold
Looks like the curtain may be coming down on this one. Pity the people of Libya.AJDABIYA, Libya — Behind tanks, heavy artillery and airstrikes, forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi routed on Tuesday a ragtag army of insurgents and would-be revolutionaries who were holding the last defensive line before the rebel capital of Benghazi.
Blasts of incoming fire came every few seconds at the edge of this city straddling a strategic highway intersection where rebels have bulldozed berms and filled hundreds of sandbags around two metal green arches marking the western approaches to the city. As the shelling intensified on Tuesday, hundreds of cars packed with children, mattresses, suitcases — anything that could be grabbed and packed in — careened through the streets as residents fled. Long lines of cars could be seen on the highway heading north to the Benghazi, about 100 miles away.
In Benghazi itself, though, there were no signs of preparations for a vigorous defense.
The barrage offered a loud and ferocious counterpoint to stalled efforts by Western diplomats to agree on help for the retreating rebels, like a no-flight zone, even as Colonel Qaddafi warned the insurgents on Tuesday that they had only one choice: surrender or flee. By Tuesday afternoon, the pro-Qaddafi forces had taken control of the road to Benghazi to the east, cutting off the rebels’ main line of retreat, The Associated Press reported, citing rebel sources ..
You're probably right. The guy over at Nightwatch says the end of the week.
I've been reading a lot of things though and I wonder if we can judge the true strength of the opposing forces accurately. Gaddafi is deeply unpopular to begin with. The use of mercenaries probably made him more so. Somebody commented that in WWII things swung vast distances and back again repeatedly in that area. In Chad a pickup truck borne invasion force crossed the country and attacked the capital before anybody knew they were there. The rebels seem to have a lot of pickups mounted with heavy machine guns and all those pickups are better than anything the Long Range Desert Group had. It is probably very difficult to protect the whole length of that coastal road from people going around to the south and coming in from the desert. Those things might be important, maybe not.
Also Crowbat suggested that the early stout resistance may have sapped a lot of the regimes strength.
Say, where is Crowbat anyway?
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
For no other reason than the fact that the US has IMO recently tread very heavily in the path of world affairs (and typically to our detriment) and is experiencing larger issues as a result, it would be nice to see us stay out of what is a Libyan affair.
Last edited by jcustis; 03-17-2011 at 11:55 AM.
I agree with you on this Carl.
It appears the Germans were running intereference for Russia to stall agreement on a no fly zone. So what leverage have the Russians used on Germany or what is the hitherto unknown German/Libyan connection?Back to Libya though. There was a twitter a few minutes ago by Galrahn to the effect that the Libyan rebels have been joined by jets of the Free Libyan Air Force. If that is true the whole question about a no fly zone may be moot. I wonder if we are doing something completely unseen to get those jets into action.
The French are sounding a little more belicose which is nice to see (for a change) and Cameron seems game for a little coordinated Anglo-French air action.
(With a bit of luck Europe (at least Britain and France) will be able to act on a situation on their doorstep and be able to flip to the finger to the US as well. A good excuse to pull pull their troops out of Afghanistan?)
Yes, fascinating reports of jets and helicopter gunships. We know that two jets flew to Malta.
Hmmm, how about a private gas pipeline into your back yard for starters
With all this talk of moral courage and Rwanda (the church did it), nice to see the French stepping up to the plate. Maybe this time they'll actually work with us vs hiding the guilty
If you want to blend in, take the bus
Seems to be that way...
Yes.Yep, nor does it have to be. It's said that if two people are in total agreement, one of them is probably unnecessary. So we can agree to disagree and move on.We have a pretty fundamental disagreement then and it will probably not be resolved easily or here.
Keep on pushin'
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