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Thread: And Libya goes on...

  1. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by taabistan View Post
    I'm constantly amazed by westerners and their inability to understand what is a very simple concept: keep out of the affairs of other nations.
    And I am amazed that you think this is a problem only with westerners.

  2. #982
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    Uh, where did I say that? Western intervention has been the most blatant form of intervention in the last 15-20 years, which is why I mentioned it. Any form of military intervention in a sovereign state is heinous.

    Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya... for the love of God, if you don't have any respect for the "enemies'" dead, at least have some respect for your own.

  3. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by taabistan View Post
    Any form of military intervention in a sovereign state is heinous.
    Why? Why should sovereignty trump everything else, including human rights?

    I have little doubt that a majority of Libyans welcome external support for their effort to overthrow the Qaddafi dictatorship. Indeed, if anything, their primary complaint at present seems to be that NATO isn't doing enough.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  4. #984
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    You're right. Why do we even have borders? Let's get rid of those as well.

  5. #985
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
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    The tension between local sovereignty and universal rights can be a productive one. But I do wish we had something like an interventionists’ Hippocratic Oath.
    Last edited by ganulv; 07-29-2011 at 04:04 AM. Reason: typo fix
    If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)

  6. #986
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    It just got weirder.

    BENGHAZI, Libya (AP) -- The Libyan rebels' military commander was killed by his comrades while in custody after he was arrested by the opposition's leadership on suspicion of treason, witnesses said Friday, in a sign of disarray that posed a major setback for the movement battling Moammar Gadhafi.

    The slaying of Abdel-Fattah Younis raised fear and uncertainty in Benghazi, the de facto rebel capital. Thousands marched behind his coffin, wrapped in the rebels' tricolor flag, to the graveyard for his burial, chanting that he was a martyr "beloved by God." Troops fired a military salute as the coffin arrived, and angry and grieving supporters fired wildly into the air with automatic weapons.

    At the graveside, Younis' son, Ashraf, broke down, crying and screaming as they lowered the body into the ground and - in a startling and risky display in a city that was the first to shed Gadhafi's rule nearly six months ago - pleaded hysterically for the return of the Libyan leader to bring stability.

    "We want Moammar to come back! We want the green flag back!" he shouted at the crowd, referring to Gadhafi's national banner.
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...07-29-11-49-41
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


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  7. #987
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    Default Simon Jenkins again...

    Nightly Britain bombs Tripoli. Bar death, what do we achieve?

    Jenkins misses a point that if the politicians decide that military intervention is necessary then the military must salute and get on with the job.

    The thought of some chinless wonders in the civil service being able to constrain the will of an elected government is more scary than what the Bush/Blair combination got up to.

    What has led to the failure is that the military were constrained in how they were carry out the intervention to the point of an emasculated effort.

    Yes Cameron and Sarkozy were probably influenced to act through domestic political pressure but were unable to carry out any meaningful intervention without the US leading the charge.

    A reluctant Obama agreed to a solid 48 hours to kick the intervention off but then through the council of his chorus of clowns came up with the "no boots on the ground" crap and left the rest up to hopelessly inadequate NATO assets while remaining firmly in charge.

    Anyone remember the three stooges?

    The West is not only in trouble on the economic side, international foreign policy is in a total shambles...

  8. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    Why? Why should sovereignty trump everything else, including human rights?
    Surely only a nation governed by the will of the people can be considered sovereign.

    For example (and using the Democracy Index) there are 26 full democracies whose sovereignty should be respected to the fullest extent (unless they invade a neighbour or some other action such as this).

    One should display some patience and tolerance towards the 53 flawed democracies .

    While the 32hybrid regimes and the 56 authoritarian regimes should not be recognised as sovereign states (unless you need their oil )

    Not everything should be negotiable.

  9. #989
    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
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    Default KAddafi made an alliance with Islamist?

    From New York Times:
    Libya Allying With Islamists, Qaddafi Son SaysThe leading Islamist whom Mr. Qaddafi identified as his main counterpart in the talks, Ali Sallabi, acknowledged their conversations but dismissed any suggestion of an alliance.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/wo...f.html?_r=2&hp

    Libya made alliance with islamist Ali Sallabi? Well what a great news. In 2009 this guy was already working for Kaddafi:

    Libyan Islamists Back Away from al-Qaeda Merger in Reconciliation with Qaddafi Regime
    Dr. Ali Sallabi, a Qatar-based Libyan Islamist and the main mediator between the imprisoned LIFG leaders and the authorities, has been quoted as saying the talks “are very encouraging” after meeting the six Shura Council members of the LIFG in their Tripoli prison (Dar al-Hayat, June 15).
    http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_..._news%5D=35147

    Then Kaddafi made alliance with LIFG? I do have some doubts about it.
    Just take a look at the LIFG profile on the STARS project:
    Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) is dedicated to two principle objectives. The founding goal of the terrorist group is to overthrow the current Libyan government led by Muammar Qadhafi. LIFG was founded on the belief that Qadhafi and his government are un-Islamic and should be overthrown.
    http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data_...le.asp?id=4400

    Don't get too easily abused by the accidental gerrila syndrome.

  10. #990
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    Default Libya after General Younis’s murder

    The Quilliam Foundation published 'Libya after General Younis’s murder: Q and A with Noman Benotman' on the 3rd: http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/co...-briefing.html

    Benotman being a member of the disbanded LIFG,his Q. bio is here:http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/noman-benotman.html
    davidbfpo

  11. #991
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Worth citing the following from the article referenced above:

    When we talk about a genuine democratic Libya that means the Libyan people themselves need to be democratic. The harsh reality is that due to the 42 years of Gaddafi’s dictatorship, Libya does not have real democratic values. Without these values it is very difficult to create and establish a democratic state system and government.
    That applies equally to Egypt, Tunisia, Iraq and others. It's completely unrealistic to expect a rapid transition to functioning democracy. It's not just a question of "democratic values"... a culture of democracy has to emerge, in practice, and that takes time. The initial impulse is often for multiple parties to emerge, differentiated along sectarian, tribal, or individualist lines, often representing little if any "choice" in policy or ideological orientation. With numerous contending parties it's easy to get elected officials with a small minority of the vote. Gridlock may be severe, and early "democratic" governments may be unable to do very much beyond incessant talk. Populaces with huge expectations often become intensely frustrated with the emerging process, and there's often nostalgia for a dictator who could and would actually do something... even something awful.

    All of this is to be expected, at least if we pay any attention at all to the history of transition out of extended dictatorship. Democracy is a wonderful thing, but it's no magic bullet and it's no assurance of stability, prosperity, or functioning government, especially in the short term.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  12. #992
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    Default Western Libya SITREP, 14-08-11

    Meanwhile, the rebels continue to make progress in the West--aided in part by considerable reorganization of their forces and command and control structures in recent weeks...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  13. #993
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    Default CNT has a constitution now

    On August the 3rd, Libyan rebels adopted a constitution.
    Here is a link to the document in French. I could not find a link to it in english but I'm sure it does exist.
    http://static.lexpress.fr/imgstat/pd...tion_libye.pdf

  14. #994
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    Foreign Affairs just released this, on the internal politics of the rebel movement...

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...lries-in-libya
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Default Lessons for Libya: Law Enforcement from Day Zero

    Lessons for Libya: Law Enforcement from Day Zero

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    Default This Week at War: Talking Time in Libya

    This Week at War: Talking Time in Libya

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  17. #997
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Libya nearing the end?

    Moderator's Note

    I have opened a new thread :http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ad.php?t=13986

    I have temporarily 'locked' this thread and can new posts be placed on the new thread.
    davidbfpo

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