Syria: a civil war (closed)

[jmm99]

of 1960 Sharpeville (covered by National Review to some extent) - and an intelligent conversation of several hours in 1965 with a SA U of Mich student (Capetown, Brit heritage) re: SA Race Relations (largely, I listened).

I find Sharpeville quite a bit distant from 2011 Syria (a materiality issue, not a relevancy issue); but that event may have made a distinct impression on you - depending on your age, proximity to it, etc.

In any event, here is what the UNSC did in 1960, Resolution 134 (1960) of 1 April 1960 (the key "mandate"; love the date ):

4. Calls upon the Government of the Union of South Africa to initiate measures aimed at bringing about racial harmony based on equality in order to ensure that the present situation does not continue or recur, and to abandon its policies of apartheid and racial discrimination;

5. Requests the Secretary-General, in consultation with the Government of the Union of South Africa, to make such arrangements as would adequately help in upholding the purposes and principles of the Charter and to report to the Security Council whenever necessary and appropriate.

Adopted at the 856th meeting by 9 votes to none, with 2 abstentions (France, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

Is this what you want the UN to do ?

Regards

Mike

[JMA]

of 1960 Sharpeville (covered by National Review to some extent) - and an intelligent conversation of several hours in 1965 with a SA U of Mich student (Capetown, Brit heritage) re: SA Race Relations (largely, I listened).

I find Sharpeville quite a bit distant from 2011 Syria (a materiality issue, not a relevancy issue); but that event may have made a distinct impression on you - depending on your age, proximity to it, etc.

In any event, here is what the UNSC did in 1960,

I see a real similarity between the two where a regime killed a number of its citizens who were involved in a non-violent protest action.

The numbers are significant say compared to the four at Kent State and the furore that followed that.

I merely suggest that a motion of condemnation be attempted through the UNSC.

I further suggest that 22 April will probably become a day that will remembered in the history of Syria as being the turning point in their struggle for democratic and human rights and marked as a public holiday.

[jmm99]

the vote on a Resolution to "Condemn" (cf., Res. 134) - and the "play by play" from our President and Secretary of State. Why they elect to do that is beyond me - trying to get ahead of the story, I suppose.

Kent State (killing four students and wounding nine others) and Jackson State (killing two students and injuring twelve) were relatively small in numbers.

In materiality, they were huge. We had started to kill each other. We had to stop that, regardless of fault. The 1970s were a very dicey period in our (US) history - in a real sense, a period of some insanity until matters evened out somewhat in the 1980s.

I've no crystal ball on this Arab World "1848" - the Euro 1848 did not lead to immediate change (but built in a long-term "IED" which blew during WWI). I notice that Pat Cockburn is predicting that the Arab rebels (at least in some places) are in for a thrashing, Patrick Cockburn: The regimes are rallying their forces. Is the tide turning against Arab freedom?.

I haven't the foggiest.

Regards

Mike

[JMA]

the vote on a Resolution to "Condemn" (cf., Res. 134) - and the "play by play" from our President and Secretary of State. Why they elect to do that is beyond me - trying to get ahead of the story, I suppose.

Better coming from Europe I suggest, best from Germany.

Knowing the reticence of the US to even appear to confront Russia who is an ally of the Syrian regime not holding my breath on any action from that side.

Kent State (killing four students and wounding nine others) and Jackson State (killing two students and injuring twelve) were relatively small in numbers.

In materiality, they were huge. We had started to kill each other. We had to stop that, regardless of fault. The 1970s were a very dicey period in our (US) history - in a real sense, a period of some insanity until matters evened out somewhat in the 1980s.

The same situation has developed in the "Arab World" (they are killing each other) and maybe the people on the receiving end need a little help?

I sincerely hope they will not be left in the lurch like the people of Hungary 1956 were.

I've no crystal ball on this Arab World "1848" - the Euro 1848 did not lead to immediate change (but built in a long-term "IED" which blew during WWI). I notice that Pat Cockburn is predicting that the Arab rebels (at least in some places) are in for a thrashing, Patrick Cockburn: The regimes are rallying their forces. Is the tide turning against Arab freedom?.

I haven't the foggiest.

Regards

Mike

I suggest that the defeat of these Arab regimes by the people is indeed inevitable.

From Sharpeville to 1994 elections took 34 years. In Hungary from betrayal to eventual freedom took 33 years. The easy ones (Tunisia, Egypt) are done (well the first phase that is). From now on it will be increasingly difficult... and these people will need help. By being seen to help Arabs in a country which does not have oil will be good PR

As the US seems intent to sit on its hands I truly believe that the Brits must pull their forces out of America's war in Afghanistan and position (what they can) in the Mediterranean and prepare to assist the Arab and later the African peoples free themselves. Same applies to the French.

[Dayuhan]

Better coming from Europe I suggest, best from Germany.

Knowing the reticence of the US to even appear to confront Russia who is an ally of the Syrian regime not holding my breath on any action from that side.

Can't see how it would have anything to do with Russia, but I can see why the US wouldn't want to be seen to be doing hatchet work for the Israelis, which is how any US move against Syria would look. Better to see it initiated by Europe, far better still from the Muslim world or at least somewhere outside the Old Colonists Club.

I sincerely hope they will not be left in the lurch like the people of Hungary 1956 were.

Since you like ranting about nations having blood on their hands, why not tell us how much blood the US would have on our hands if we'd gone to war with the Soviets in Europe? A rough estimate will do.

Nobody got "betrayed" in Hungary, or in Libya. You can't betray someone to whom you have no responsibility.

[JMA]

... the UNSC is working out a resolution on Syria. 300-400 already dead but not to expect any quick action from the UNSC.

I would (if I were the US president ) give the Russians until the end of the month to reign in the Syrian regime or will offer the people of Syria protection from the excesses of the regime.

The momentum is building nicely...

[Tukhachevskii]

... the UNSC is working out a resolution on Syria. 300-400 already dead but not to expect any quick action from the UNSC.

I would (if I were the US president ) give the Russians until the end of the month to reign in the Syrian regime or will offer the people of Syria protection from the excesses of the regime.

The momentum is building nicely...

If you were President of any country I would be afraid, very afraid.


Momentum? For what? Do you really think the Russians are going to take pointers (let alone orders) from the Yanks? Do you really think the Russians will get overflight rights from the Turks or the Georgians? Since when do te Russians care about protecting anyone else? They're old school as I am and don't see the point in intervention (humantiarian or otherwise unless absolutely necessary to maintain global/regional order a la Burke; they and I are adherents of Luttwak on that point, just see Libya).OTOH, in your world (which, IMO, is a completely different dimension) who would protect the Syrians from the Russian attempts to protect them?! (insert approproate emoticon)

[Entropy]

I would (if I were the US president ) give the Russians until the end of the month to reign in the Syrian regime or will offer the people of Syria protection from the excesses of the regime.

That begs the question - you'd give them to the end of the month...or what? What are you willing to trade or threaten to gain Russian compliance? What will you do when Russia gives you the middle finger and tells you to mind your own business?