update on Manning's torture

[Pete]

Fact: Somewhere along the line the soldier in question signed an oath.

True. But don't do things during his detention that feed the nut-case conspiracy theories. Try and convict him for the 20 years or so that he deserves. If you hang around the U.S. Armed Forces long enough their institutational reputation for exercising probity and good judgement become very important things in the long haul. We went though some blips in Korea and Vietnam but if the basic integrity of the service shines through during thick and thin most of the opinion of the world will have confidence in us.

[Van]

I'm thinking this might be relevant. Needless to say, I agree with Steve Blair at this point.

[motorfirebox]

What Manning did has no relevance on how he is currently--that is, prior to his trial--being treated. By that I mean Manning's crimes do not make it okay to punish him without a trial. Punishment before trial is not justice; in fact, it's injustice, contrary to the entire point of having trials in the first place.

It is very much in the US's interests to publicly torture Manning. It sends a very clear message: Manning is a soldier, and soldiers are pretty highly regarded by most of the US. The message is, if we're willing to do this to a soldier, imagine what we'll do to you--"you" being anyone, soldier, civilian, or foreign national, who wants to try to leak sensitive material.

The idea that Manning is being held under prevention of injury protocols solely for his own safety (even recognizing that ensuring his safety is necessary to bring him to trial) is naivete at best and willful ignorance at worst. We have a pretty poor track record when it comes to the rights of people we decide are enemies. If it looks like we're acting heinously when we deal with an enemy, it's probably because we're acting heinously.

If you want to see Manning tried and shot, well, okay--let's do that. Personally, I'm not sure the death penalty is warranted in this case, but that's a different argument; at the very least, shooting him after trying him for treason would be the proper execution (no pun intended) of justice as this nation subscribes to the concept. But to hold Manning under his current conditions and claim it's justice is to be either appallingly unaware of political reality or appalling unwilling to accept those realities.

[Ken White]

Punishment before trial is not justice; in fact, it's injustice, contrary to the entire point of having trials in the first place.

It's not punishment -- though it may be punishing. It's pre-trial confinement, similar to being held without bail before a civilian criminal trial (LINK). I have no idea how many civilians are being so held due to being a perceived flight risk but I'm sure you object to their confinement as well.

Most military offenders are not placed in pre-trial confinement but those with major offenses (of which Manning is accused) and who are deemed flight risks (Manning's UK connection. Extradition is expensive...) will almost always be confined until all the investigations are complete. The Judge Advocates discourage pre-trial unless it really seems necessary in order to avoid creating sympathy for the accused by the Court Martial boar or Military Jury -- that because of the protections afforded the accused, the investigations typically take far longer than would a comparable civilian effort.

In my experience and observation, the system goes to great lengths to insure they have a solid case before charges are preferred. The military justice system gets wrongly slammed for having a high conviction rate. It does but that's due to the fact that the Judge Advocates won't charge people unless they have a really solid case. Most people look at the Charged:Tried ratio (civilian Indictment:Trial). A better assessment would be crimes committed versus offenses charged -- that ratio is low, far lower than most civilian venues.

It is very much in the US's interests to publicly torture Manning...you" being anyone, soldier, civilian, or foreign national, who wants to try to leak sensitive material.

That has not deterred previous leakers, most of whom don't get caught -- Manning apparently did get caught. You run across a lot of folks in the service who are about a tenth as smart as they think they are and who do dumb stuff. Happens all the time...

The idea that Manning is being held under prevention of injury protocols solely for his own safety (even recognizing that ensuring his safety is necessary to bring him to trial) is naivete at best and willful ignorance at worst.

That sentence you wrote is the reason for my suggestion. That's just not correct. If there's any justice system that is more slavishly overprotective of the rights of the accused than the US Military Justice system, I'm unaware of it (LINK).

We have a pretty poor track record when it comes to the rights of people we decide are enemies. If it looks like we're acting heinously when we deal with an enemy, it's probably because we're acting heinously.

We do heinous occasionally, mostly we don't. Though we do stupid a lot...

If you want to see Manning tried and shot, well, okay--let's do that. Personally, I'm not sure the death penalty is warranted in this case, but that's a different argument; at the very least, shooting him after trying him for treason ...

I doubt a Treason charge would stick and to my knowledge, no one other than a few folks here and there are interested in that. I strongly doubt the death penalty will be sought though I do not doubt some folks will wish for that.

But to hold Manning under his current conditions and claim it's justice is to be either appallingly unaware of political reality or appalling unwilling to accept those realities.

May I suggest it is you that appears unwilling to accept realities. Manning hasn't been subjected to much more hassle than most armed forces Recruits are subjected to for weeks at a time and not nearly as much as many 'endure' in more advanced training. There is no official claim of 'justice' in his current detention -- he's in pre-trial confinement, no more.

Also note, he's currently at the USDB at Leavenworth and the Army has a much more benign concept of incarceration than do the Marines so your fears may well be misplaced.

[AdamG]

I'm thinking this might be relevant. Needless to say, I agree with Steve Blair at this point.

See also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

*
Meanwhile, back in the holding cell...

FORT LEAVENWORTH, Kan. (AP) -- Army officials are opening the doors to the military prison in Kansas where they are holding an Army private suspected of illegally passing U.S. government secrets to the WikiLeaks website.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US

[91bravojoe]

Manning's 'protection':

President Obama Makes a Fair Trial of Bradley Manning Impossible By Declaring Him Guilty

The “Bradley Manning Exception to the Bill of Rights” Devastates the Credibility of the Military Justice System

By Kevin Zeese

The credibility of the military justice system is being undermined by the prosecution of Bradley Manning. His abusive punishment without trial violates his due process rights; his harsh treatment in solitary confinement-torture conditions violates the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment; and now the commander-in-chief has announced his guilt before trial making a fair trial impossible. A Bradley Manning exception to the Bill of Rights is developing as the Obama administration seeks Manning’s punishment no matter what constitutional protections they violate.

http://my.firedoglake.com/kevinzeese...ng-him-guilty/

-----------------------------

The robust reputation of the UCMJ apparatus:

American military justice is under constant attack. It is distrusted by civilian lawyers, detested by the ordinary serviceman who is subject to it, and criticized by military legal officers who administer it.1

The following comment by Robert Sherrill is typical of current criticism of military law:

Because the military has been so singularly unconscious of its defects and so inept at correcting those it does recognize, countless attorneys, millions of servicemen and ex-GIs, some civilian jurists and even some politicians are now convinced that there is no use to wait longer for internal reforms and that the best thing to do is simply to take away the judicial process and
return jurisdiction to the civilian courts.2

Authored by a reserve Major/lawyer.

http://repository.law.ttu.edu/bitstr...pdf?sequence=1

------------------------

I didn't speak to one person during my active duty who thought the military justice system made any sense at all. Let the humour resume.

[Ken White]

LINK

There have been many changes to both the UCMJ and the MCM since the Article at the second link above was written. It, like the opinions portrayed in the anecdotal comment, is over 40 years old...

[Van]

I didn't speak to one person during my active duty who thought the military justice system made any sense at all. Let the humour resume.

What about the UCMJ did not make sense? Did you go to the manual of courts martial and read it or did you take the word of someone as poorly informed as yourself? Have you looked at the MCM lately (it is entirely on line and available for your consideration)? Remember, you have made the allegation, the burden of proof is on you.

Not that I expect you to answer any of these points or make any personal effort to understand what you attack, but I want everyone else to see you avoid the questions and demonstrate your lack of intellectual rigor.

[jmm99]

From David Coombs:

07 November 2012

PFC Manning's Offered Plea and Forum Selection

PFC Manning has offered to plead guilty to various offenses through a process known as "pleading by exceptions and substitutions." To clarify, PFC Manning is not pleading guilty to the specifications as charged by the Government. Rather, PFC Manning is attempting to accept responsibility for offenses that are encapsulated within, or are a subset of, the charged offenses. The Court will consider whether this is a permissible plea.

PFC Manning is not submitting a plea as part of an agreement or deal with the Government. Further, the Government does not need to agree to PFC Manning's plea; the Court simply has to determine that the plea is legally permissible. If the Court allows PFC Manning to plead guilty by exceptions and substitutions, the Government may still elect to prove up the charged offenses. Pleading by exceptions and substitutions, in other words, does not change the offenses with which PFC Manning has been charged and for which he is scheduled to stand trial.

PFC Manning has also provided notice of his forum selection. He has elected to be tried by Military Judge alone.

Interesting tactic, sometimes used in civilian courts. The idea is to strike a "plea bargain" (via the judge's decision alone to a lesser charge) where a formal plea bargain is foreclosed (for one reason or another). It has worked.

Regards

Mike

[jcustis]

Surprisingly enough, I am looking at an autonomous ad for "Free Manning" in the upper right corner of the screen.

But more importantly, it looks like OBL is dead...

Now, those folks who are not flash-in-the-pan warriors need to continue the good fight and tread softly as they carry big sticks. We are still in for a long row to hoe.

[Stan]

Pete,
While I wholeheartedly agree with you, and Ken has done yet another fine job of explaining why Manning is still being held, I think the military spends little time entertaining nut-case theories and generally ignores mass media. I've hung around the military all my life and find that our system needs to remain strict and I see no lack of integrity.

Sam put things into perspective for all of us having worked in the prison system. If Manning was in general population several very unpopular things would have happened and we wouldn't be having this conversation nor would we be concerned at all over the outcome. For some reason what takes place among inmates seems OK and never makes the headlines.

True. But don't do things during his detention that feed the nut-case conspiracy theories. Try and convict him for the 20 years or so that he deserves. If you hang around the U.S. Armed Forces long enough their institutational reputation for exercising probity and good judgement become very important things in the long haul. We went though some blips in Korea and Vietnam but if the basic integrity of the service shines through during thick and thin most of the opinion of the world will have confidence in us.

[Entropy]

Just a couple of points of information:

1. Manning would not be put into "general population" while in a pretrial status. Personnel in pretrial confinement are generally required to be held separately from convicted prisoners and in a large brig (like quantico) there is a separate area for just that purpose.

2. A few months before Manning arrived at the Quantico Brig, a Marine in pretrial confinement committed suicide at the brig. To me it seems only natural that brig personnel would take no chances of a repeat so soon after a suicide, especially a high-visibility confinee like Manning.

Of course, there's a risk in that. Whatever one's opinion on Manning, I think he will have a case for an article 13 violation. It's going to get brought up in court for certain and will be decided there and it will also be looked at on appeal should he be convicted. There's some appellate case history (PDF file, article 13 stuff begins on page F-10) that indicates to me (as a non-lawyer) that he might receive some credit.

Edit: Adding this from Manning's lawyer's blog:

The order to keep PFC Manning under these unduly harsh conditions was issued by a senior Quantico official who stated he would not risk anything happening “on his watch.” When challenged by a Brig psychiatrist present at the meeting that there was no mental health justification for the decision, the senior Quantico official issuing the order responded, “We will do whatever we want to do.” Based upon these statements and others, the defense was in the process of filing a writ of habeas corpus seeking a court ruling that the Quantico Brig violated PFC Manning’s constitutional right to due process.

"not on my watch" sounds to me like they aren't going to take any chances on another suicide....