update on Manning's torture

[SteveMetz]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13138050

Highlight of the conduct of the Third Reich, er, the US government:


Informed sources also believe Manning is not permitted to play online poker.

Officials at the detention center said Manning was not "forced" to stand naked during roll call, but elected to. If the accusations are accurate, Manning is a chronic liar with a victim complex. He has a vested personal interest in portraying himself as a victim. Yet you seem to have accepted his word over that of military officials who have not been accused of lying and who have no vested interest in misportraying the situation.

I'll disagree. IMO, you've been duped by the propaganda of Manning's supporters.

[JMA]

Officials at the detention center said Manning was not "forced" to stand naked during roll call, but elected to. If the accusations are accurate, Manning is a chronic liar with a victim complex. He has a vested personal interest in portraying himself as a victim. Yet you seem to have accepted his word over that of military officials who have not been accused of lying and who have no vested interest in misportraying the situation.

I'll disagree. IMO, you've been duped by the propaganda of Manning's supporters.

Whatever Steve.

Personally an intelligent person would be prudent to not take the government and sadly also the military at its word.

Like Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib this is another own goal by the US government.

Try to read this article with and open mind and see if it helps... Lessons from Manning's transfer out of Quantico

[J Wolfsberger]

Try to read this article with and open mind and see if it helps... Lessons from Manning's transfer out of Quantico

For future reference, Glenn Greenwald is not a go-to-guy for anything resembling accurate reporting or rational commentary. On this issue, he is part of a Left wing anti-war, anti-Bush chorus trying to accomplish ... something.

To give an example of just what level these people are operating at, they apparently planned, at some point, to enter Marine Corps Base Quantico and stage a protest about the alleged mistreatment of Mr. Manning. They were outraged that the Corps didn't want to play that game with them. That level of childish detachment from reality should, at a minimum, indicate a certain lack of credibility.

Mr. Manning is being held in the brig pending Court Martial. If found guilty of the charged offenses, and depending on any consequences that directly resulted from his actions, the penalties range from decades in prison to death. He is apparently severely depressed, understandably so, and under suicide watch. His military record contains numerous examples of inappropriate outbursts, some of which became physical. Given the behavior of his supporters, if he were to commit suicide it would result in an hysterical conspiracy theory about how the evil somebody-or-other killed him and made it look like a suicide to conceal something-or-other. For these reasons he is being held under very strict and close supervision.

Steve raised a couple of other relevant points. I'll also add to 120mm's points by adding that "UN Human rights investigation, a German Parliament inquiry and some hippies from Amnesty International" don't have the credibility they used to have - but that's a debate for another thread.

In summary, this issue only has legs with conspiracy cranks and some domestic politicals.

[JMA]

For future reference, Glenn Greenwald is not a go-to-guy for anything resembling accurate reporting or rational commentary. On this issue, he is part of a Left wing anti-war, anti-Bush chorus trying to accomplish ... something.

You don't get it do you John?

This is exactly why you need to read what this guy says and not bother with what some flunky spin-doctor from the government says.

If you are able to rebut him and not just blow him off then you are on firmer ground. At the moment all I hear is attempts to trash his supporters.

OK, so lets try the New York Times - Soldier in Leaks Case Will Be Made to Sleep Naked Nightly - or is that just some left-wing liberal rag?

...then maybe you can trash the 250 legal academics who signed a petition on the matter - or are they just a bunch of lunatic lefties who are aiding and abetting an enemy of the state?

[J Wolfsberger]

This is exactly why you need to read what this guy says and not bother with what some flunky spin-doctor from the government says.

Salon is an opinion site, generally left of center, with contributers ranging from world class to execrable. Mr. Greenwald is at the wrong end of that spectrum, and I stopped paying attention to him long ago. If and when I hear from respected third parties that's he's begun making sense, I may reconsider. (Incidentally, he built his reputation in the 1990s with what I considered over the top criticism of Pres. Clinton, and I was not a Clinton supporter.)

If you are able to rebut him and not just blow him off then you are on firmer ground. At the moment all I hear is attempts to trash his supporters.

I'm not attempting to trash him or his supporters. For all I know, in his personal life he is kind to children and stray dogs, and visits the elderly every Sunday after volunteering at the homeless shelter. That doesn't change the fact that he is not a credible source for anything.

OK, so lets try the New York Times - Soldier in Leaks Case Will Be Made to Sleep Naked Nightly - or is that just some left-wing liberal rag?

Yes.

...then maybe you can trash the 250 legal academics who signed a petition on the matter - or are they just a bunch of lunatic lefties who are aiding and abetting an enemy of the state?

Yes.

Finally,

I can understand that some people are pissed at this guy and want him to "pay" for what he has done...

First, what he is alleged to have done. He hasn't been tried, yet. Until he is tried, he is in custody of military authorities. I expect them to take appropriate precautions to ensure he isn't a danger to himself or others. They appear to be doing so.

... but at least convict him first before you start screwing with his body and his mind.

As I and others have pointed out, the allegations that anyone, other than himself, is "screwing with his body and his mind" are not arising from credible sources.

[J Wolfsberger]

If you are able to rebut him ...

I didn't address this above, but it deserves a separate response anyway.

The U.S. has a cottage industry of people engaged in evidence, fact and knowledge free "reasoning." They congregate at both extremes of the political spectrum, left and right. We have people referred to as "Birthers" who insist Mr. Obama wasn't born in the U.S. or, seemingly, to his mother, and we have people called "Truthers" who believe the World Trade Center was blown up by the C.I.A. because steel doesn't melt and stress yield curves are independent of time and temperature. (I assume they believe I-beams grow on structural steel trees, and alloying is a form a sympathetic magic.)

It is a complete waste of time to try to rebut every crackpot theory that gets thrown out there. Instead, it is up to the proponents to present credible evidence substantiating their allegations. (And they can't seem to comprehend that allegations are not evidence.)

Specifically, and to your point in adding the quote regarding torture, Mr. Manning's "pain or suffering" result from conditions of confinement "... arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions" undertaken, as I said above, to protect him from himself and others while he awaits trial. I am unaware of any agenda free, nonpartisan organization or group that has presented evidence otherwise.

[stanleywinthrop]

...then maybe you can trash the 250 legal academics who signed a petition on the matter - or are they just a bunch of lunatic lefties who are aiding and abetting an enemy of the state?

Apparently you have never been inside a modern U.S. law school. You can't walk inside a single one of them and take a piss without getting at least 40-50 ultra-left wing law professors wet. Just about any of these "legal academics" would happily sign anything anti-military and pro wiki-leaks without bothering to independently check the underlying facts.

So the fact that 250 of them signed a petition doesn't mean a damn thing. What is curious is that the petitioner can't seem to round up more than 250.

[Steve Blair]

Apparently you have never been inside a modern U.S. law school. You can't walk inside a single one of them and take a piss without getting at least 40-50 ultra-left wing law professors wet. Just about any of these "legal academics" would happily sign anything anti-military and pro wiki-leaks without bothering to independently check the underlying facts.

So the fact that 250 of them signed a petition doesn't mean a damn thing. What is curious is that the petitioner can't seem to round up more than 250.

And it's also interesting in light of the fact that U.S. universities tend to practice their own summary justice in the form of student review boards, disciplinary committees, and other things that would never stand in normal courts. It's nice to live the dream. The reality is somewhat different and distinctly uncomfortable for those who think.

Personally I don't blindly accept what anyone says in this case. Manning and his supporters certainly have far more reason to lie (and an audience much more willing to take them at their word), which makes their utterances a bit more suspect. Does that mean I blindly accept what the government says? No. But the government has more to lose by lying or deliberately concealing things. Manning and his supporters can just say "oopsie...we were confused" and get away with anything.

[Entropy]

I don't think Manning's treatment constitutes torture. The reason is because the conditions under which he is confined are not in and of themselves illegal or torturous. Prisoners can be held in those conditions when the circumstances warrant it. In my view, "torture" is doing things that would never be acceptable under any conditions like threatening to kill a prisoner or their family, waterboarding, physical torture, etc. The simple fact of being in a max custody status and under prevention-of-injury watch is not torture.

Instead of torture, the disconnect here (and I recommend everyone read Manning's Lawyers' blog) is that Manning is being held in a higher state of confinement than is warranted for someone in his circumstances. Namely, he's being held in a "prevention of injury" status that is specifically designed to restrict his activities to such an extent that he's unable to injure himself. It's designed for prisoners who might hurt themselves. The problem with that is that he's been cleared psychologically on several occasions and so there is not clear justification for keeping him at the higher level of confinement. The brig has not given any alternative justification for the high-level confinement.

Maybe the brig and the government has a valid reason, but so far they haven't, to my knowledge, provided one. To my mind, this isn't torture at all, but it could well be illegal and a violation of UCMJ article 13. The thing is, Manning will get his day in court - his lawyer will probably file an article 13 motion and this whole thing will be legally adjudicated.

Finally, I say all this as someone who takes the unauthorized disclosure of classified information very seriously. Personally, I hope Manning gets put away for a long time but IMO the actions taken by the brig are not only unjustified, but stupid given the support they've given Manning. He's now a kind of hero to many people and he's got a lot of people paying money for his legal defense, etc. - and for what? No good reason that I can see. Maybe the brig was stupidly trying to punish him, or maybe they just wanted to CYA and make sure that nothing would happen to a high-profile prisoner, but either way, this is certainly an "own goal" by the government even if it's not torture.

[J Wolfsberger]

The problem with that is that he's been cleared psychologically on several occasions and so there is not clear justification for keeping him at the higher level of confinement.

I was under the impression that the psych eval found him able to participate in his defense. But I also thought that he was initially considered to be a suicide risk. Was this incorrect?

[JMA]

... this is certainly an "own goal" by the government even if it's not torture.

Exactly.

[SteveMetz]

Whatever Steve.

Personally an intelligent person would be prudent to not take the government and sadly also the military at its word.

Like Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib this is another own goal by the US government.

Try to read this article with and open mind and see if it helps... Lessons from Manning's transfer out of Quantico

I got to about the third sentence of the article. When the author simply repeated Manning's story line about "inhumane treatment" as if it were fact, I recognized the story was propaganda, not analysis.

After all, what's the source of information that Manning has been "tortured" or "treated inhumanely"? Answer: Manning says so. Believe what you want but based on what I know about him and what is in his interests, I don't consider him credible.

[JMA]

I got to about the third sentence of the article. When the author simply repeated Manning's story line about "inhumane treatment" as if it were fact, I recognized the story was propaganda, not analysis.

After all, what's the source of information that Manning has been "tortured" or "treated inhumanely"? Answer: Manning says so. Believe what you want but based on what I know about him and what is in his interests, I don't consider him credible.

Steve, maybe you work off a different definition of torture but the one that counts is this one:

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture

I can understand that some people are pissed at this guy and want him to "pay" for what he has done... but at least convict him first before you start screwing with his body and his mind.

[SteveMetz]

Steve, maybe you work off a different definition of torture but the one that counts is this one:



I can understand that some people are pissed at this guy and want him to "pay" for what he has done... but at least convict him first before you start screwing with his body and his mind.

My point has nothing to do with being pissed off. It has to do with military officials saying one thing and Manning saying something different, and my assessment of which of the two are more credible given their character and vested interests. I have to believe that people who accept Manning's account of events rather than the one offered by military officials aren't basing that on inherent credibility, but on ulterior motives and predispositions.

[davidbfpo]

Why have the US military authorities not allowed an independent assessment of the accused / prisoner physical and mental health? I assume that there is such a person, is this not an Inspector General's role?

Instead it appears that his treatment is far from proper care and custody. Which gives some cause for concern and the clear possibility of an "own goal".

Then one must acknowledge that in the USA, especially in Federal cases, the threat of and use of pre-trial detention is used to undermine the accused's wish for a full trial.

[SteveMetz]

Why have the US military authorities not allowed an independent assessment of the accused / prisoner physical and mental health? I assume that there is such a person, is this not an Inspector General's role?

Instead it appears that his treatment is far from proper care and custody. Which gives some cause for concern and the clear possibility of an "own goal".

Then one must acknowledge that in the USA, especially in Federal cases, the threat of and use of pre-trial detention is used to undermine the accused's wish for a full trial.

DoD officials have said that his treatment is the same as other detainees. I assume it would take some evidence to the contrary other than statements by his lawyer and fans to instigate an investigation.

Given the publicity attached to this, I personally find it wholly unbelievable that DoD officials aren't being extraordinarly careful to follow all policies and laws.

[JMA]

Why have the US military authorities not allowed an independent assessment of the accused / prisoner physical and mental health? I assume that there is such a person, is this not an Inspector General's role?

Instead it appears that his treatment is far from proper care and custody. Which gives some cause for concern and the clear possibility of an "own goal".

Then one must acknowledge that in the USA, especially in Federal cases, the threat of and use of pre-trial detention is used to undermine the accused's wish for a full trial.

The Red Cross were allowed into Guantanamo so why not into this facility. The refusal is a message to the (unsophisticated majority of the) world that maybe the US indeed has something to hide.

This Manning business is an addition to the case study into the US's dissociative identity disorder.

Here we have a nation on one hand tying both hands of its soldiers in Afghanistan behind their backs (through utterly restrictive RoEs) in a vain but desperate attempt to win the hearts and minds of people (whose hearts and minds are not up for grabs in the first place) and then the abject and almost pathetic fear of offending Muslims, the "Arab Street" and the Russians by constant promises not to put boots on the ground in Libya and then on the other flipping the world over a minor and trivial matter like the pre-trial incarceration and treatment of Bradley Manning. This positively boggles the mind.

Will the real America please stand up.