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  1. #1
    Council Member LawVol's Avatar
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    recovering from the mental abuse of law school
    best line . . . ever.

    Interesting ideas. It sounds very similar to BG Martins' "hub and spoke" model of bringing rule of law to Afghanistan (which seems to be an adaption of the ink blot strategy). Legal hubs are set up in the five main population centers. As these become viable, the concept is moved to smaller and smaller population centers and linked back to the larger centers. Rights now the focus is on establishing effective Provincial Justice Centers in Herat, Mazar, Jalalabad, Kandahar, and Kabul. There is also talk of a sixth one in Khowst. The problem seems to be timing. Given transition concerns, the timeline is compressed so much that we're moving focus into the districts at an advanced rate. Focus everywhere is focus nowhere, it would seem.

    I think the model, much like your own, is workable and does greatly simplify the issue. However, what happens at the local level outside your key areas? As we "ignore" these places while solidifying the key areas, doesn't taliban justice becomes stronger? Also, while we can certainly protect the justice center and its operators in legal green zones as you suggest, how do we protect those that use our services? It would be quite easy for the taliban to determine who is using it and then punishing the locals.

    we must bring justice to the village in order to be able to secure it.
    well said.
    -john bellflower

    Rule of Law in Afghanistan

    "You must, therefore know that there are two means of fighting: one according to the laws, the other with force; the first way is proper to man, the second to beasts; but because the first, in many cases, is not sufficient, it becomes necessary to have recourse to the second." -- Niccolo Machiavelli (from The Prince)

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Protecting those who work with GIRoA and the Coalition is a problem for every aspect of our operations there over the past 10 years, not just this one narrow, but critical, LOO.

    If the Coalition does not shift focus to oversee and drive a reconciliation that results in reincorporating those represented by the Taliban with those represented by the Northern Alliance into an evolved, inclusive form of GIRoA, there will inevitably be a growth of insurgency as we withdraw (and we will withdraw) that will indeed punish those who have collaborated with our occupation. To assume otherwise is naive.

    The Justice LOO I lay out here must be part of a larger effort that takes on overall legitimacy of governance (ends the Northern Alliance monopoly and Taliban exclusion) and equity under the law (ends the centralized Ponzi scheme of Patronage codified under the current constitution that make ALL government in Afghanistan "Government in a box" - a box built by the constitution, protected by the Coalition, and filled with cronies by Karzai). In such a scheme security efforts and development efforts would be greatly reduced and refocused as well to support these main efforts that go after the true drivers of this enduring conflict.

    Can we protect all the people in the short-term? No. More will die due to the deliberate and accidental acts of both sides in this conflict. When one wages war against and among the people, the people suffer. We must focus on the longterm. If we only seek to enforce an exclusion of one side, then there will be a backlash, and it will likely be a brutal one.
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Council Member Polarbear1605's Avatar
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    LawVol: Gald to see you are safe and sound. To steal a line from the movie “The Last Samurai”…I truly enjoy our “conversations”.

    Quote Originally Posted by LawVol View Post
    because I'm headed out to one of the provinces shortly.

    The COIN mission dictates that LoW and RoL apply simultaneously in that, as I've previously indicated, LoW in a subset of RoL.
    Nope …yes, we have to use the LOW and pursue the ROL…but all military operations are governed by the LOW. On the battlefield there is no subset.

    I really like the “Bob’s World” solution; it is (IMO) thought out, different and viable. Let’s assume Bob’s Striker BDE scenario for a sec (I do like it). I would envision the BDE driving into the village (just to let any hidden bad guys in the vill know that the good guys are here) or not (it would be up to the Joint Task Force Law commander), the BDE sets up a perimeter around the ville…everything inside the vill is ROL and everything inclusive of the perimeter and out is LOW. Coordination Point is designated on the perimeter on the main road to the vill … police chief, judge, or gov official meet there with the BDE commander and agree that everything inside the perimeter is LOW and everything outside the perimeter ROL. Further coordination: BDE states that any ROL incident or situation will be brought to the judge and passed to his police at this coordination point; and if a LOW incident occurs in the vill; ie – an undetected or hidden insurgent cell that your police can’t handle attacks you, my troops will enter the vill to do their thing (that you need done) under the LOW. The two players shake hands and each goes to work on their side of the street.
    FM 2-24
    (1-160) “…insurgents are constrained by neither the law of war nor the bounds of human decency.”
    (2-24) Human decency and the law of war require land forces to assist the population in their AO’s.”
    (D12) “When insurgency occurs during occupation, the law of war includes rules governing situations in which the military forces of one state occupy the territory of another.”

    Last comment on the separation of the LOW and the ROL (and LawVol, I do think that in many ways we are saying the same thing but differently). After 9/11, the president was faced with a decision to apply either the LOW or the ROL to this terrorist incident and the Global War on Terrorism (AQ). Yes, neither fit well; generally speaking, the LOW applied to states and nations not terrorist organizations; the ROL does not extend outside the territorial limits of the US. The Pres, however, had to made a decision, either or. The president picked LOW and then his administration started to build an apparatus (procedures) that attempted to fill those gaps in the LOW applied to the war on terrorism. If they are not two very different things why did the President have to choose? If you get the chance read “New Wars, New Laws? Applying the Laws of War in the 21 Century Conflicts” by David Wippman & Matthew Evangelista. The book is a compilation of papers and speeches…generally; there is no discussion or debate that the LOW and the ROL are different or separate.

    Quote Originally Posted by LawVol View Post
    In other words, complying with LoW demonstrates some aspect of RoL.
    Yep…agree as does implementing the ROL when it is ready, using the LOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by LawVol View Post
    I think he is disturbed by the over-legalization of the battlefield to the extent that it places lives in danger.
    Absolutely, and reputations and the legal rights of our Soldiers and Marines at the expense of politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by LawVol View Post
    In other words, to the extent that ROE jeopardizes American lives, blame politicians and commanders not lawyers.
    I understand my tone can be ruff, but don’t recall blaming lawyers. I do blamed commanders, specifically generals regularly.
    Generals also state the bright shiny dogma that ROL and WOL are the same. In fact, they constantly exchange the terms as they fill their sound bits with the buzz words. Different subject, but this joint article by Generals Krulak and Hoar (and I think highly of both officers), starts with the LOW arguments and then concludes with ROL bright shiny dogma. http://www.federaljack.com/?p=11123 In reality, the Bush administration was attempting to draw the line (in our favor) in a LOW definition that is wide open. The definition is wide open because when we sit down at the “let’s decide what the laws of war should say” table, the opposition is sitting there across from us and they ain’t going to vote yes on any wording that puts them on report.

    Ok next up…why do we not prosecute insurgents for war crimes? We are back to Questions 1, 2 and 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
    …1) how many Afghans, Taliban, and/or insurgents have been brought to trial for killing US service men and women? 2) Another question, if this is working so well why have Afghan casualties gone up significantly each year since and inclusive of 2008?...3) By not applying the laws of war to the insurgents you are undermining your own strategy and efforts. Another question: How many spies have been prosecuted or are there none in Afghanistan?

  4. #4
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    Default Responses to questions

    from Carl
    Isn't most of this implicit in the original scenario?
    Not "implicit" to me when I wrote it. The Interwebs admittedly lack for expressive clarity. Don't read into what I write too much beyond the black and white. It was not until I watched the reruns years later that I realized that Hamilton Burger meant "hamburger" (to Perry Mason).

    Which (thankfully) moves us to:

    from fmr11a

    - Are the individuals part of a declared hostile force? (in 2007, in Iraq, our JAG told us that we could not conduct missions with the intent to "kill or capture" suspected members of AQI because they were no longer a "declared hostile force." Instead, we had to go with the intent of "capture," though we were free to kill in self-defense).

    - What is your mission?

    - What is the commander's intent?

    Also, how could rule of law "apply"? Isn't rule of a law a characterization of how a legal system is used, rather than a system that can be applied?
    Going backwards, "Rule of Law" and "Laws of War" (as often used above by me and others) are shorthand for two systems of law. Most simplistically, "Rule of Law" = the national non-military, civilian legal system, which is in effect in Peacetime, and in times of armed conflict in "pacified" areas. Whereas, "Laws of War" = a military legal system, a subset of International Law and a subset of national additions, which is in effect in areas of armed conflict.

    That being said: "rule of law" (as opposed to "rule by law") can be a characterization of how a legal system is used. But, to do that, you have to spell out a "working definition" - as I have done; as Mark Martins did in his speech.

    As to the middle two questions, - What is your mission? - What is the commander's intent?. My set of questions (in A follow-up) was an attempt to suggest those areas of discussion; and that certain legal answers should be known to (and findable by) non-legal types (HT: Peter Newell, link cited by me here).

    The first question "Are the individuals part of a declared hostile force?" is theoretically crucial since it expands the hunting license beyond the always-in-play "defense of self and others" rules of the open-source SROEs. Combatant members (those who are "part of") a "declared hostile force" (you'll find this additive feature in the unclassifed SROEs) are subject to "kill or capture" (regardless of hostile threat; at any time, at any place), given a "positive ID".

    The last is the practical problem. If you only learn that "Joe" is a combatant of a "declared hostile force" because he is shooting at you or is planting an IED, the expanded hunting license adds little. You (about Iraq) and Custis about both Iraq and Astan), for example, could better comment on the practical implications of limiting the scope of the 2001 AUMF at the tactical level. Based on what Jon has written in several places, the more restrictive rules did not impede his unit as a practical matter.

    Finally, I find much to agree with (as a practical matter; what "should or should not be" gets into endless circularity) in this (emphasis added):

    fmr11a

    My view is that our military forces are the only units with the adequate size, resources, and structure to perform the mission-essential task of connecting the central government to the lowest political units. They should be focused upon that task and it will likely need to occur by way of acting as a third-party mediator. As a caveat, I would add that task organizing as a military-civilian type task force at the BN level would be ideal if we have sufficient civilian personnel with the relevant skill/experience. Security operations should be supporting tasks. Security operations should be driven by specific considerations on the ground, not necessarily done as preliminary operations that are assumed to "shape" the battlefield for political reconciliation.
    Since this is one of my interests (discussed in various places with Wilf), I'd be interested in the "relevant skill/experience" you suggest for the civilian personnel at the Bn level - as well as, what decisions are "military", what decisions are "political", who decides "tiebreak" ? - the whole ball of wax, as you wish.

    Some "military-civilian dialog" (in a "Small Wars" context):

    Liberius: [Liberius and Razin are debating whether or not to allow Zhivago's release] I command this unit!

    Razin [Poltical Commisar]: We command jointly! The Party Bulletin expressly states...

    Liberius: Bah!
    [knocks bulletin out of Razin's hands]

    Liberius: I could have you taken out and shot!

    Razin: And could you have The Party taken out and shot? Understand this: as the military struggle draws to a close, the political struggle intensifies. In the hour of victory, the military will have served its purpose - and all men will be judged POLITICALLY - regardless of their military record! Meanwhile, there are still White units in this area - the Doctor stays
    Regards

    Mike

    PS: How to avoid law school "mental abuse" ? In my limited experience, none of the I Law and Comp Law guys were student burners. The Procedure guys were substantively different, with the Criminal Procedure guys being the worst at burning students. My general defensive measure was to sit in the front row at the far left (to the prof's right side) and not arouse the prof's "primeval genetic uncontrolled reaction to spotting potential prey" (HT Bear). Also, have side jobs (dealing with Real World Law) and cut as many classes of student burners (and of boring professors) as you can.

    That didn't prevent all interchanges; but it limited them. And once, I got really lucky - or "How I burned Jerry in Advanced Criminal Procedure". Anyway, the practice of law is what it's all about - and one can look back on law school as primarily a course in a different library science, some mental abuse, and some decent conversations with profs and other students.
    Last edited by jmm99; 05-01-2011 at 08:31 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default You can't handle the truth about ...

    Beneficiarius placement - but since you asked ....

    This also ties in with fmr11a's military-civilian team idea - seriously.

    Here is as much as you need to know about the grade of Beneficiarius (also a standard and an insignia of the Beneficiarius):

    In the principate, the term came to be used for a specific grade of officer within the military staff (officium) attached to each equestrian officer of an auxiliary unit; each camp prefect; each legionary tribune and legionary legate; each provincial procurator and other equestrian officials within a province and each provincial governor.
    In short, they were of the Roman Professional Soldiers (or Marines in the smaller Roman Navy), who had come through the ranks to centurion or super-centurion grades.

    The Roman officers, for whom they served, whether their social class was senatorial (Caesar) or equestrian (Pilate), were trained in rhetoric and served as often as magistrates than as soldiers. In short, they were trained and served as lawyers. Some were gifted military amateurs; some were definitely not gifted military amateurs.

    The Beneficiarii, like other centurion super grades, functioned as a link between the lawyers (the top dog officers) and the professional military. A Beneficiarii of the governor's staff had a lot of clout (he could draw a circle in the sand with his belt insignia - and say: "I am Rome. Cross the line if you dare."):

    Whatever duties they carried out away from the provincial capital they did so as the representative of the governor. This explains the number of miniature “beneficiarius lance” badges found on military sites in Northern Europe. These would have been attached to leather belts or strap ends and showed that the person was an official of the governor and operating on his behalf independently of any other military officer.
    Since a bear wears no belt, I can only see it being pinned to the obvious male appendage - sort of a pizzle stick, I suppose.

    Cheers

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 05-01-2011 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default My take ("on the record") on Krulak-Hoar

    Here it is, at Hi Fuchs.

    Note that, by making the Army Manual the standard for both military and non-military agencies, the effect was to move part of our Laws of War into our Rule of Law. Krulak-Hoar probably could have stated it more precisely.

    We also have had discussions about the UCMJ moving our Rule of Law into our Laws of War.

    Regards

    Mike

    PS: I expect I may be a bit spotty in replying to posts here or elsewhere at SWC for the next few weeks - may be, may be not.
    Last edited by jmm99; 05-01-2011 at 09:26 PM.

  7. #7
    Council Member LawVol's Avatar
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    Your Back!...?
    Yep, my trip was cut short due to flight restrictions so I had to catch whatever was available out of there or risk a long-term stay with short-term supplies. On watching the news this morning, I now know why. It was still a productive trip and I learned a bit about Pahtu vs Hazara views of RoL.

    LawVol, I do think that in many ways we are saying the same thing but differently
    I'm beginning to see this as well. I did come across an example on my short trip that illustrates, I think, both of our positions. It seems there is some frustration among a particular battle space owner because of the conflict between RoL and LoW (his characterization as relayed to me). He doesn't like the fact that his troops sometimes have to do warrant ops (serving warrants and all that entails) as he'd rather just kill them. Given proper PID, I can't say I'd disagree but then again I don't make the rules or generate the mission. However, some of the spec ops folks actually like the warrant ops because they find that on showing a village elder official paperwork, they often are able to take custody without shooting. These differing experiences, however, are likely a result of differing conditions. What works in one place may not work in another (this is why a ground-level view is crucial for policy-level folks).

    I understand my tone can be ruff, but don’t recall blaming lawyers.
    I meant this as more of a general statement rather than an indictment of anything you said specifically. Thanks for the book suggestion; I'll check it out.
    -john bellflower

    Rule of Law in Afghanistan

    "You must, therefore know that there are two means of fighting: one according to the laws, the other with force; the first way is proper to man, the second to beasts; but because the first, in many cases, is not sufficient, it becomes necessary to have recourse to the second." -- Niccolo Machiavelli (from The Prince)

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    Default Surf's up - here

    Hey Steve,

    Your question:

    The rule of law assessments by my legal beagle CA brothers & sisters were always very interesting.

    Wonder if this is applicable, helpful, correct?

    Guiding Principles for Stabilization and Reconstruction, Section 7 Rule of Law
    seems better placed here than in "War Crimes".

    Once LawVol decompresses from Afghanistan, I'd hope he'd join in the discussion. Of course, Polarbear1605 is always decompressed when it comes to "Rule of Law".

    I will take a crack at answering your question re: USIP; but not tonight.

    In the meantime, take a look at LawVol's closing blog post, Closing Thoughts (17 Feb 2012). As to the "rule of law", I found these paragraphs by John to be most compelling:

    Davis is not, however, completely wrong from my perspective. His conclusion that the results (real, imagined, or expected) are not worth the effort is accurate from my own perspective. While Davis toured with combat units, I toured with development folks working in the area of rule of law. Thus, our views become complimentary in that counterinsurgency doctrine places great importance on the development of rule of law, as it is the glue that allows hard won combat victories to mature into sustainable civil society. The issues of rule of law are every bit as complicated as the tribal and enemy dynamics described above. However, some are of our own making.

    Americans have a tendency to throw money at problems in the belief that money can fix everything. Combine this with a myopic view of rule of law and the effort here becomes stagnant. Afghanistan is a poverty-stricken country with little hope of matching the influx of coalition money in the near future. Given the history of warfare here, Afghans are more likely to think in the short term than in the long term. This dictates that Afghan powerbrokers will look to absorb as much money from the coalition as possible before the coalition leaves (having an end date certainly provides incentive for this conduct). Thus, Afghan officials within the rule of law sector constantly ask for infrastructure and financial support for personnel. This is accomplished with little thought to sustainability. In other words, how will this infrastructure and personnel be paid for when the coalitions leaves? This strategy, however, does lead to a perception of success since supporters can point to the number of courthouses built, judges hired, and bad guys prosecuted without any in-depth thought to the long term sustainability of the effort. Unlike Davis, I do not see lies here – I see misperception.

    Our approach to rule of law is also, generally speaking, too focused on criminal law. This, I believe, stems from the fact that criminal law is viewed as “sexy” by lawyer and layman alike. After all, Hollywood doesn’t make television shows about contract law, do they? However, when one is trying to build a sustainable government, it is necessary to generate revenue to pay for that government’s operations. Contract law fosters security of business contracts, which increases foreign investment. Customs regulations assist in the generation of tax revenue. Transportation law allows the efficient movement of people and cargo so that business can flourish. Lawyers and judges trained to settle land disputes (a huge issue here) allow for resort to courts rather than to violence. Sure criminal law is important, but not to the exclusion of civil law or the relegation of it to almost an afterthought.

    The complexities of the situation here, and our seeming inability to address them, lead me to a pessimistic (although I think realistic is a more accurate term, but that’s my perception) view of the sustainability of this effort. Applying this to the questions I asked in the first paragraph regarding my contribution also results in a cynical outlook. As I do not think this endeavor to be sustainable (indeed I see civil war on the horizon) I cannot say I’ve made a difference. The men and women that reduced Al Qaeda to a shadow of its former self made the difference here, which, incidentally, was the original political objective of this war. Conversely, I have learned a lot, although I’m not sure that what I learned was actually intended. Unintended learning, though, is sometimes the best kind of learning. For that knowledge, at least, I am thankful.
    A virtual shell of beer is raised to you, John. Welcome Home.

    Regards

    Mike

  9. #9
    Council Member Surferbeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    Hey Steve,

    Your question:

    seems better placed here than in "War Crimes".

    Once LawVol decompresses from Afghanistan, I'd hope he'd join in the discussion. Of course, Polarbear1605 is always decompressed when it comes to "Rule of Law".

    I will take a crack at answering your question re: USIP; but not tonight.

    In the meantime, take a look at LawVol's closing blog post, Closing Thoughts (17 Feb 2012). As to the "rule of law", I found these paragraphs by John to be most compelling:

    A virtual shell of beer is raised to you, John. Welcome Home.

    Regards

    Mike
    Mike,

    Greatly appreciate it, whenever you get to it. Lots of things going on in the world of late.

    By the way i also use that framework to look at/measure our own/western institutions and practices.

    John/LawVol,

    Welcome home, job well done.

    Take care,

    Steve
    Sapere Aude

  10. #10
    Council Member Polarbear1605's Avatar
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    Default hmmm...is that a gaunlet at my feet?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    Hey Steve,

    Once LawVol decompresses from Afghanistan, I'd hope he'd join in the discussion. Of course, Polarbear1605 is always decompressed when it comes to "Rule of Law".


    Mike
    You know the bear never misses a chance to charge a windmill...and probably should not pass this one up but I do need to read the reference...remember, what drove Don Quixote mad was reading besides I would never describe myself as compressed...concerned and a bit fanatical is better.
    "If you want a new idea, look in an old book"

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