Light infantry foot mobility standards?

[JMA]

Running 26.2 miles at any pace is an accomplishment -- I've never run farther than 20 miles at a time myself but it was plenty! for me, the difference between 12 and 15 miles isn't so much, but there is definitely a difference between 15 and 18 -- but 4 hours 30 minutes is as you say average. I think the qualifying time for the Boston Marathon is 3 hours 10 minutes.

Twenty-five miles in four hours in kit wouldn't be a superhuman feat but it would require serious athletes, not just a bunch of guys in good shape. Seems like overkill to me, though. Twelve-and-a-half miles in two hours with that load would tell me enough about general fitness. (Or as my high school cross-country coach once told me, "Most world class distance runners aim to run 100 miles a week because it's a nice round number. 88 seems just as round to me." )

Often the original intention behind this training is good... but in peace time the 'means to the end' often becomes the end in itself.

The idea behind these marches is to approach the enemy on foot and surprise them by putting in an attack after the march. For this purpose the Brits use 'march and shoot' exercises where at the end of the (often) ten mile march troops need to shoot for a score.

The idea is for the company/platoon to arrive together in a condition to launch directly into an attack. So the speed is controlled (or should be) and the weight carried should equate to first line ammo plus a reserve (including light mortars) to sustain an attack on arrival with enough spare to fight off any counter attack before reinforcements and/or the land tail arrives.

This is the idea... but you will always find (idiot) officers who turn it into a speed competition leaving the troops in no condition to fight at the end of the march.

As they say... some mothers have them and the army gets them.

Edit: I note I commented much the same earlier in the thread. In fact I would go so far as to recommend that a company commander gets fired/relieved if 6 men (two per platoon) drop out of the march (which must be conducted at a controlled pace). If more than two drop out per platoon you fire the officer and the sergeant.

[carl]

Often the original intention behind this training is good... but in peace time the 'means to the end' often becomes the end in itself.

The idea behind these marches is to approach the enemy on foot and surprise them by putting in an attack after the march. For this purpose the Brits use 'march and shoot' exercises where at the end of the (often) ten mile march troops need to shoot for a score.

The idea is for the company/platoon to arrive together in a condition to launch directly into an attack. So the speed is controlled (or should be) and the weight carried should equate to first line ammo plus a reserve (including light mortars) to sustain an attack on arrival with enough spare to fight off any counter attack before reinforcements and/or the land tail arrives.

This is the idea... but you will always find (idiot) officers who turn it into a speed competition leaving the troops in no condition to fight at the end of the march.

As they say... some mothers have them and the army gets them.

Edit: I note I commented much the same earlier in the thread. In fact I would go so far as to recommend that a company commander gets fired/relieved if 6 men (two per platoon) drop out of the march (which must be conducted at a controlled pace). If more than two drop out per platoon you fire the officer and the sergeant.

Nice comment JMA. It is good to be reminded what the actual purpose of the thing is.

The same thing happens in with American police in shooting. High qualification scores get to be an end in themselves. So many things seem to turn into sporting events, as you note.

[JMA]

Nice comment JMA. It is good to be reminded what the actual purpose of the thing is.

The same thing happens in with American police in shooting. High qualification scores get to be an end in themselves. So many things seem to turn into sporting events, as you note.

Carl its simple and here is what its all about from US experience (repeat):

A good example of a successful march occurred during World War II. It was the grueling foot march during the Sicilian campaign from 20 to 21 July 1943. The 3d Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, 3d Infantry Division performed this march. The battalion was directed to move on foot across mountains from Aragona to San Stefano to enter into a coordinated attack on enemy forces in San Stefano. The battalion made this record-breaking, 54-mile, cross-country march in only 33 hours due to continuous marching. Two hours after arrival, the battalion was committed in the attack on San Stefano, which resulted in its capture.

Training should be aimed at being able to replicate that magnificent feat.

[Infanteer]

Good post JMA, and an instructive bit on the utility of the march as a means and not an end. I see the attitude you've mentioned quite frequently in our Battle Fitness Test.

[Ray]

In the Indian Army, foot mobility is the norm since most of the infantry is up in the mountains and the High Altitude.

Eyeball to eyeball contact does not allow air transportation!

And roads are non existent in most places!

[JMA]

In the Indian Army, foot mobility is the norm since most of the infantry is up in the mountains and the High Altitude.

Eyeball to eyeball contact does not allow air transportation!

And roads are non existent in most places!

So what (may I ask) is your fitness standard in this regard? Carrying what weight? What distance within what time, uphill or flat or whatever?

[Fuchs]

Why are march fitness, agility fitness and weight carried such a evergreen topic?
Isn't the answer simple enough?

Self-discipline in training and in defining the loads.

It's really, really simple to trace almost all failures ever associated with these topics to failure in regard to the aforementioned requirement.

It's usually a failure of leadership either in regard to the leader's self-discipline during routine tasks or in regard to his self-discipline in making decisions. It's easy to dodge a difficult decision (weighing the pro and cons of loads) by just ordering the men to carry (too) much. In the end, the leader can claim that his mission was impossible because the men were not capable enough. That's an especially easy pretext when the leader hasn't been in charge (or the team hasn't been coherent) long enough to coin the fitness and competence of his men himself.

It's really not so important how much certain armies marched in certain ages per day. Leaders need to make difficult decisions and need to prepare their men, and it's always a trade-off.


What's interesting is not what others did or do; it's what kind of fitness your troops are expected to have (expected by higher HQ) and how you can match this and other expectations through exercise and load definition.

It's always a trade-off, an optimisation - and the cure-all for the problem is to arrange leadership dynamics in a way that does not encourage an overemphasis of loads carried and does not tolerate major training inefficiencies.
The solution is thus in the (junior) officer corps, not in weight tables, thinner fabrics or polymer cartridge cases. The senior leadership only needs to grow some political backbone and adjust its casualty aversion in a way that allows for strategic success.

[Ray]

So what (may I ask) is your fitness standard in this regard? Carrying what weight? What distance within what time, uphill or flat or whatever?

The pace of movement varies depending upon the terrain. In High Altitude, we carry about 20/25 kgs.

There is the usual Battle Physical Efficiency Tests with full combat load and weapon that includes a 5 km run in 28 mins to qualify as Satisfactory), 10 mile run in 1 hour 40 mins to be in Satisfactory, 9 feet ditch, money rope and so on. Then the Physical Proficiency Test. A swimming Test. The standards are marginally different for below 45yrs of age and above 45 years of age. Then there is the Obstacle Course.

We had a 40kms march (which is practically a run) in 5 hours with full battle loads (I don't have the exact weights, but it consists of the Field Service Marching Order with the big pack, haversack, pouch ammunition, water bottle, helmet and the weapon). I don't know if they still have this.

The standards have changed I am told.