Before WWII Fairbairn and Sykes made the same observation about police qualifying with pistols. They stopped keeping score at 50% hits on the target to avoid qualifications becoming sporting events.Originally Posted by JMA
Before WWII Fairbairn and Sykes made the same observation about police qualifying with pistols. They stopped keeping score at 50% hits on the target to avoid qualifications becoming sporting events.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Carl, they must have been wise men. I don't know the police equivalent but for the infantry their role is to close with and kill the enemy (not destroy them that's what the air force does, what the artillery does, what armour does)... the infantry gets up close and personal.
The question must always be asked of training... "how does this training prepare my soldiers for their infantry role?" If it fails the - it helps them hone their skills to close with and kill the enemy - test then don't do it.
In the military peacetime is the curse. In peacetime it is when the garrison soldiers come to the fore and the warriors leave through boredom. It is like a cancer and the symptoms must be dealt with severely when the display themselves.
Close with and arrest,kill if necessary. They were wise men, they were brought out of retirement to train the OSS in WW2. And to this day they still influence LE and the military but not as much as they used to.
PDF for Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes.
www.safeism.com/texts/ShootingToLive.pdf
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
They had to run a small obstacle course first and then go straight into qualifying with their weapon.
I can see their point but other top cops have disagreed.
For instance, some members of the now defunct NYPD Stakeout Squad used to shoot competition and thought it helpful for stress inoculation.
Now, how did we get here from foot mobility?
Last edited by Rifleman; 06-01-2011 at 07:17 PM.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
Back to subject of sustained marching with loads or going straight into a fight after a hard march: I think the best 20th Century historical examples would probably be the Chindits and Marauders from WWII's CBI and the Mobile Guerilla Forces (Blackjack Projects) from Vietnam.
Don't know what they averaged but I imagine the info is out there.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
...the Long March, Chinese invasion of Tibet, the 85% foot-mobile German army in 1940-1945?
And now prepare for the usual reminder:
There were campaigns in military history (even WW2!) that did not involve anglophone troops on either side.
Fuchs: The classic image of German infantry marching in WWII depicts them carrying an equipment belt, rifle, helmet and not much else. No big mongo pack in sight. The would imply wagons along to carry things. Is that what more or less was?
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Yes, infantry platoons had their own carts - typically a small wagon with one or two small horses ('Panje' horses) in 1942-1945 on the Eastern front.
An infantry division was (April 1940) supposed to have 16,860 men, 1,743 riding horses (especially for officers, scouts and couriers), 3,632 cart horses and 895 horse carts. The quantity of cart horses and carts had to be increased after immense horse losses in late 1941; the replacements were more resilient, but also weaker Russian horses, and their smaller carts.
Often times former Red Army soldiers (especially minorities) were employed as volunteers for many logistical tasks - charioteer was a typical task. These volunteers often received German uniforms, but without rank insignia. Some even received iron crosses and other medals. Speaking about such volunteers in German language is of course not very PC.
Typical rifle company:
3 horse carts each 2 horses or 3 horse carts each 1 horse + 1 cart with 4 horses
1 field kitchen cart with 4 horses
1 supply train (Verpflegungstroß I) with 1 horse cart + 2 horses
Companies were also supposed to have some 3 metric ton trucks. Military vehicles were required to have a marching gear for 4 km/h (foot march speed). Civilian vehicles were more typical post-mobilisation, of course.
Quick source: "Das Handbuch der deutschen Infanterie", Alex Buchner,
The problem with that is the problem that JMA alluded to, people are interested in competition and they concentrate on the things that work in competition and then they start figuring competition is the actual object and stress teaching what works in competition. It all goes around around and around and ends up a game.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Free-play exercise campaigns brigade vs. brigade, red cell vs. security company, patrols vs. patrols, MI and recce vs. counter-recce/CCD team - that's where soldiers should compete.
Foot mobility standard given for finnish soldiers in newest soldier's hand book is 15km (10miles) in eight hours with combat gear+field gear (~40kg/88lbs). Althought most times (In peacetime. In wartime?) field gear will travel in platoon's truck. Only recon and sissi units carry their field equipment.
I wonder if its grown motorisation/mechanisation of army, reduced training times, or aknowledgement of fitness rate of typical reservist, because in eighties stardard was 20-25km march, fullgear and eight hours.
Foot march
Ft. Bnning, under Maj. Gen. Latham in 1976 required every IOBC class to do 25 miles without pack, but with rifle and pistol belt and canteens, in 8 hours. We built up to that with several shorter foot marchs and easily did the requirement. Was footsore, but I believe we could have performed a mission at the end of the march. (it rained the whole time for ours).
Upon my arrival at B Co., 2/327 in Feb 77 I was told that B Co. had done 25 miles in four hours a year before with one SSg. dead of a heart attack. Never sa
w any documentation of that. Wish I knew that SSgt. name. Anyone?
Tipy
Was told that MG Latham had seen soldiers stop and give up and die during retreats during the Korean war. Wonder what ever happened to MG Latham?
Some more tidbits:
The VW Typ 82 Kbelwagen (cheaper jeep equivalent of WW2) was required to have a gear for foot march speed. It was meant to allow 4 km/h minimum speed.
Another detail:
I read a book about pre-WWI militaries in Europe (great power, focus on Germany and Austria-Hungary) again.
It mentioned
30 km required foot march / day
25 km practical march / day
50 km as one-time only exceptional forced march
That’s a passable marathon pace without boots and the rest of the kit.
If you don’t read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. – Mark Twain (attributed)
To add to what Ganulv said, this website
http://www.marathontrainingexpert.co...thon-time.html
states that the average time for men to complete a marathon is 4 hours 30 minutes. I doubt B Co. did that.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Foot march: MJ Latham
Tipy asked:He retired in 1980 and a Google article states:Wonder what ever happened to MG Latham?Link:https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...HIEtbSCJTGJesqGeneral Latham’s military career took him from leading an infantry platoon in combat during the Korean War to being the Deputy Commander of combat ready Army Corps in Germany. General Latham’s career began by leading a mortar and rifle platoon in Korea for two years.
He really did like walking:http://www.uta.edu/publications/utam...ture%20Stories
davidbfpo
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks