Light infantry foot mobility standards?

[JMA]

I'll dig around and see if I can find some references in my books and will get back here either way.

In the interim, see the attched graphic. It's from US Army Field Manual 21-18, Foot Marches (LINK) It's a rough guide.

Ken, thanks for that manual.

I understand and have some experience of how these marches become "games" or a sport when the aim is lost.

I quote from the manual you provided a link to:

1-3. MARCH MISSION
A successful foot march is when troops arrive at their destination
at the prescribed time. They are also physically able to execute
their tactical mission.

a. Troops must execute the mission immediately upon
completing the march. Normally, this is done through
conditioning and acclimatization of troops to the area of
operations. This includes physiological and psychological
adjustment by the individual soldier.

b. Commanders must ensure that the amount and type of
equipment carried, the rate of march, and the length and number
of rests equates with the physical endurance of the men. Good
planning and command leadership are required to move troops
to the right place at the right time. The commander also ensures
troops arrive in good condition to accomplish their mission.

30 years on my opinion has not changed that the performance of a small team of carefully selected soldiers from a unit involved in a loaded march competition against small teams from other units is a waste of time and resources.

I suggest that one of the tests of unit/company/platoon operational readiness is for all the members to partake in a march in compliance with the above quote being that the company leaves together, marches together, arrives together and are able to conduct an operation together as a unit on arrival. To allow this aspect of soldiering to become a race is part of the insanity that grows in armies in peacetime. There is no doubt such a test laid down somewhere.

That valuable manual provides historical examples, like this one:

A good example of a successful march occurred during World War II. It was the grueling foot march during the Sicilian campaign from 20 to 21 July 1943. The 3d Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, 3d Infantry Division performed this march. The battalion was directed to move on foot across mountains from Aragona to San Stefano to enter into a coordinated attack on enemy forces in San Stefano. The battalion made this record-breaking, 54-mile, cross-country march in only 33 hours due to continuous marching. Two hours after arrival, the battalion was committed in the attack on San Stefano, which resulted in its capture.

Outstanding effort. I suggest that this is what the training should be aimed at preparing a unit to achieve and units should avoid or be forced to avoid getting involved in side shows where non representative "teams" from units battle it out in militarily pointless races of the insane kind.

[carl]

I understand and have some experience of how these marches become "games" or a sport when the aim is lost.

Before WWII Fairbairn and Sykes made the same observation about police qualifying with pistols. They stopped keeping score at 50% hits on the target to avoid qualifications becoming sporting events.

[JMA]

Before WWII Fairbairn and Sykes made the same observation about police qualifying with pistols. They stopped keeping score at 50% hits on the target to avoid qualifications becoming sporting events.

Carl, they must have been wise men. I don't know the police equivalent but for the infantry their role is to close with and kill the enemy (not destroy them that's what the air force does, what the artillery does, what armour does)... the infantry gets up close and personal.

The question must always be asked of training... "how does this training prepare my soldiers for their infantry role?" If it fails the - it helps them hone their skills to close with and kill the enemy - test then don't do it.

In the military peacetime is the curse. In peacetime it is when the garrison soldiers come to the fore and the warriors leave through boredom. It is like a cancer and the symptoms must be dealt with severely when the display themselves.

[slapout9]

Carl, they must have been wise men. I don't know the police equivalent but for the infantry their role is to close with and kill the enemy (not destroy them that's what the air force does, what the artillery does, what armour does)... the infantry gets up close and personal.

Close with and arrest,kill if necessary. They were wise men, they were brought out of retirement to train the OSS in WW2. And to this day they still influence LE and the military but not as much as they used to.

[carl]

PDF for Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes.

www.safeism.com/texts/ShootingToLive.pdf

[slapout9]

PDF for Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes.

www.safeism.com/texts/ShootingToLive.pdf

They had to run a small obstacle course first and then go straight into qualifying with their weapon.

[Rifleman]

Before WWII Fairbairn and Sykes made the same observation about police qualifying with pistols. They stopped keeping score at 50% hits on the target to avoid qualifications becoming sporting events.

I can see their point but other top cops have disagreed.

For instance, some members of the now defunct NYPD Stakeout Squad used to shoot competition and thought it helpful for stress inoculation.

Now, how did we get here from foot mobility?

[Rifleman]

Back to subject of sustained marching with loads or going straight into a fight after a hard march: I think the best 20th Century historical examples would probably be the Chindits and Marauders from WWII's CBI and the Mobile Guerilla Forces (Blackjack Projects) from Vietnam.

Don't know what they averaged but I imagine the info is out there.

[Fuchs]

Back to subject of sustained marching with loads or going straight into a fight after a hard march: I think the best 20th Century historical examples would probably be the Chindits and Marauders from WWII's CBI and the Mobile Guerilla Forces (Blackjack Projects) from Vietnam.

Don't know what they averaged but I imagine the info is out there.

...the Long March, Chinese invasion of Tibet, the 85% foot-mobile German army in 1940-1945?

And now prepare for the usual reminder:
There were campaigns in military history (even WW2!) that did not involve anglophone troops on either side.

[carl]

Fuchs: The classic image of German infantry marching in WWII depicts them carrying an equipment belt, rifle, helmet and not much else. No big mongo pack in sight. The would imply wagons along to carry things. Is that what more or less was?

[Fuchs]

Yes, infantry platoons had their own carts - typically a small wagon with one or two small horses ('Panje' horses) in 1942-1945 on the Eastern front.

An infantry division was (April 1940) supposed to have 16,860 men, 1,743 riding horses (especially for officers, scouts and couriers), 3,632 cart horses and 895 horse carts. The quantity of cart horses and carts had to be increased after immense horse losses in late 1941; the replacements were more resilient, but also weaker Russian horses, and their smaller carts.
Often times former Red Army soldiers (especially minorities) were employed as volunteers for many logistical tasks - charioteer was a typical task. These volunteers often received German uniforms, but without rank insignia. Some even received iron crosses and other medals. Speaking about such volunteers in German language is of course not very PC.


Typical rifle company:
3 horse carts each 2 horses or 3 horse carts each 1 horse + 1 cart with 4 horses
1 field kitchen cart with 4 horses
1 supply train (Verpflegungstroß I) with 1 horse cart + 2 horses

Companies were also supposed to have some 3 metric ton trucks. Military vehicles were required to have a marching gear for 4 km/h (foot march speed). Civilian vehicles were more typical post-mobilisation, of course.

Quick source: "Das Handbuch der deutschen Infanterie", Alex Buchner,

[carl]

For instance, some members of the now defunct NYPD Stakeout Squad used to shoot competition and thought it helpful for stress inoculation.

The problem with that is the problem that JMA alluded to, people are interested in competition and they concentrate on the things that work in competition and then they start figuring competition is the actual object and stress teaching what works in competition. It all goes around around and around and ends up a game.

[Fuchs]

Free-play exercise campaigns brigade vs. brigade, red cell vs. security company, patrols vs. patrols, MI and recce vs. counter-recce/CCD team - that's where soldiers should compete.

[PsJÄÄK Korte]

Foot mobility standard given for finnish soldiers in newest soldier's hand book is 15km (10miles) in eight hours with combat gear+field gear (~40kg/88lbs). Althought most times (In peacetime. In wartime? ) field gear will travel in platoon's truck. Only recon and sissi units carry their field equipment.
I wonder if its grown motorisation/mechanisation of army, reduced training times, or aknowledgement of fitness rate of typical reservist, because in eighties stardard was 20-25km march, fullgear and eight hours.

[Tipy]

Ft. Bnning, under Maj. Gen. Latham in 1976 required every IOBC class to do 25 miles without pack, but with rifle and pistol belt and canteens, in 8 hours. We built up to that with several shorter foot marchs and easily did the requirement. Was footsore, but I believe we could have performed a mission at the end of the march. (it rained the whole time for ours).
Upon my arrival at B Co., 2/327 in Feb 77 I was told that B Co. had done 25 miles in four hours a year before with one SSg. dead of a heart attack. Never sa
w any documentation of that. Wish I knew that SSgt. name. Anyone?
Tipy
Was told that MG Latham had seen soldiers stop and give up and die during retreats during the Korean war. Wonder what ever happened to MG Latham?

[Fuchs]

Some more tidbits:

The VW Typ 82 Kbelwagen (cheaper jeep equivalent of WW2) was required to have a gear for foot march speed. It was meant to allow 4 km/h minimum speed.


Another detail:
I read a book about pre-WWI militaries in Europe (great power, focus on Germany and Austria-Hungary) again.
It mentioned
30 km required foot march / day
25 km practical march / day
50 km as one-time only exceptional forced march

[ganulv]

Ft. Bnning, under Maj. Gen. Latham in 1976 required every IOBC class to do 25 miles without pack, but with rifle and pistol belt and canteens, in 8 hours. […] Upon my arrival at B Co., 2/327 in Feb 77 I was told that B Co. had done 25 miles in four hours a year before with one SSg. dead of a heart attack.

That’s a passable marathon pace without boots and the rest of the kit.

[Rifleman]

.....units should avoid or be forced to avoid getting involved in side shows where non representative "teams" from units battle it out in militarily pointless races of the insane kind.

Oh, you heretic!

You just trashed the Best Ranger Competition!