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  1. #1
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Missiles are just a method of delivering a load of high explosives on a target. In that respect, the effect on a target they have isn't any different from aircraft bombs. Various installations have been vulnerable to being targeted by high explosive aircraft bombs for going on 100 years now. But the fact that they were vulnerable didn't have much to do with whether that vulnerability was fatal or decisive. All of North Vietnam was vulnerable to air attack by 1972 and they won anyway. Malta was vulnerable for years but it hung on and the forces based there were able to hurt the Axis severely.

    So the fact that a base is vulnerable to attack by itself is neither here nor there. You have to judge whether the damage you can inflict from that base is worth the damage it may take. Guam I think is indispensable if you want to damage Red China in the event, God forbid that it would happen, of a war. It would be vulnerable to missile attack but how many can they throw, how much HE is in each warhead, how accurate are the warheads, how well would we be able to shoot down or decoy the warheads, how effective would hardening the base be etc etc. Whether the base would be worth the effort would depend upon the answers to those questions.
    Haddick phrased it like this...

    some military analysts fear that in a shooting war with China, missile strikes could close U.S. air bases and ports on the island, preventing the Marine infantrymen there from getting to where they might be needed....

    ...Under a growing missile threat, field commanders will likely prefer the flexibility afforded by an expeditionary approach compared to the vulnerability of fixed bases -- such as Okinawa -- located within easy range of Chinese missiles.
    He referred to Okinawa, as nobody credible is seriously discussing bases in the Philippines.

    Certainly there'd be a balance to be weighed, but apparently there's concentrating too much force in a vulnerable area could lead to a situation where that force could easily be neutralized.

    There's also a question of what threat exactly we're trying to deter, and how likely that threat is to materialize. Having rapidly mobile Marine forces in the area would be of great value in a land confrontation between South and North Korea, but would have limited applicability in many of the more likely scenarios involving China. It would not, for example, be much of a deterrent to the naval and air shadow boxing that's gone on in the SCS. Again, the presence of 4500 US troops in the Philippines for the Balikatan exercsie didn't deter the Chinese from pushing at Scarborough Shoal, and may well have encouraged them.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    That is an excellent point, that I of course, never thought of.
    I'd say the two major factors that took the anti-bases movement out of the vociferous but ineffectual left corner and into the mainstream were residual bad feeling over the decades of American support for Marcos and distaste at what had grown up around the bases. Resentment over the support for Marcos has faded a bit with time, though the US still has very limited credibility as a champion of democracy. The second concern is still very much active, understandably. Angeles and Olongapo at the peak made Sodom and Gomorrah look like paragons of moral rectitude.

    Not saying those were the only factors in play, but they were major ones. At the crux of it money was a key issue; the Philippine Senate made it clear that there would have to be a large increase in compensation, the US side declined to offer much. That to some extent may have been an example of the local habit of saying "no" by asking a price you know will be refused. At the level of popular support I suspect the money was less an issue than the factors cited above, and of course a simple desire to stop feeling like a colony.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    You are probably right but I don't see why it has to be like that. In The Left-Handed Monkey Wrench the author made the point that sailors acting up when on shore leave did so sometimes because nobody really bothered to give them alternatives. When people made the effort to guide them toward something other than tearing the place up, a lot of sailors took advantage of it and things calmed some.
    I don't think it has to be like that, but I think it will be like that. One of the stupidest things about the Smith case was the ease with which it could have been prevented, if a bit of discipline and supervision had been applied. There's a "boys will be boys" attitude in some quarters, and some memories of "the good old days" in Subic. Of course not everyone thought those days so good, and that's where the problems start.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Military sex tourism

    Reading the last few posts and knowing a tiny bit of history around US military use of bases in the Phillipines and Japan made me wonder. Have we considered here the effect of impact of military sex tourism? I know sex tourism is an academic subject and has been written about a lo, plus in the popular press..

    I am sure this issue is not unique to the Pacific Rim, although I cannot immediately recall contemporary public stories about it.
    davidbfpo

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    If you don't want to address the points being made, I suppose it's easiest to assume that anyone whose assessment of threat diverges from yours is "delusionally optimistic and positive". I'm still curious about exactly what, specifically, we're supposed to be so afraid of.
    I would address points if it was worth the effort.

    Nowhere have I said that contrary views are "delusionally optimistic and positive".


    That is your delusionally interpretation.

    I take it you have reason to be afflicted by the same or why raise the irrelevant?

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    Philippines Appeals for U.S. Help in Building Armed Forces
    http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...g-Armed-Forces

  5. #5
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Default And a few more...

    Philippines, US agree to build up PH defenses

    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/353...up-ph-defenses

    US neutral in Scarborough standoff but will help upgrade Philippine Navy

    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/354...hilippine-navy

    Lawmakers lament US ‘hands-off’ position

    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/354...80%99-position

    Despite all the talk, the US isn't actually offering anything beyond sale of a second retired Coast Guard cutter, which was already agreed on months ago. Nothing really new anywhere in the statements; essentially it's just a restatement of the status quo ante.

    There were discussions some time back between the Philippines and Italy over purchase of frigates and aircraft, I wonder if that will be revived. Some Philippine legislators were apparently hoping that a flap with China would persuade the US to give them a Navy and an Air Force, either free or on the cheap, and that's clearly not about to happen.
    Last edited by Dayuhan; 05-03-2012 at 06:23 AM.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Default Useful information...

    ICG report on China and the SCS...

    http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/F...hina-sea-i.pdf

    Material starting on page 29 is particularly relevant to this discussion.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    US submarine surfaces in Subic

    MANILA, Philippines - One of the most modern submarines in the United States Navy surfaced last Sunday in Subic Bay in Zambales where it is currently deployed to ensure freedom of navigation in the Western Pacific.

    The arrival of the Virginia-class fast attack submarine USS North Carolina (SSN-777) came as the Philippines is embroiled in a standoff with China for more than a month now in Panatag (Scarborough) Shoal, 124 nautical miles from mainland Zambales....

    Unlike the visits of other US vessels in the country, the docking of USS Carolina at Subic bolstered earlier speculations that the US government, while openly declaring that it will not interfere in any territorial dispute in the region, is also closely watching the prevailing standoff between the Philippines and China over ownership of Bajo de Masinloc or “Karburo” to local fishermen....

    http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/re...surfaces-subic

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