War dead are sneaked out of the back gate

[Red Rat]

but those comparisons seem like apples and oranges to me. IRA snipers were in a good position to kill with precision whereas Taliban IEDs are in a good position to bring about loss of limb and sight and to cause brain damage via their shock waves. And I would assume that the length of the ISAF engagement has resulted in improvement of infrastructure and routinization conducive to a level of response not possible over the much shorter course of the Falklands War.

It would be interesting to see a well-designed study investigating some of these issues. Does anyone know if there has been such an effort?

IRA snipers are mostly a misnomer, most shoots were at relatively close range. By far the most dangerous weapon in NI was the IED from the 1980s onwards.

What has significantly improved survival rates in Afghanistan is the amount of protection afforded to the individual (body armour) and significantly improved treatment capabilities at every stage of the process. Units deploying to Afghanistan aim to have at least 1 in 2 (and preferably everyone) personnel trained as a team medic. Every patrol is accompagnied by a combat medical technician (mostly of paramedic grade) and in the event of a casualty our MEDEVAC and CASEVAC capabilities are significant. On arrival at hospital they are into one of the best truama centres in the world and from there can be dispatched to the best centre to cope with their particular injuries.

In the Falklands our tolerance of risk was much greater, so less body armour and while the medical chain was world class for its time it was nothing like what we have now.

The situation in AFG is very much more like that in N Ireland in terms of the development of medical TTPs and capabilities and attitude towards risk.

[JMA]

What has significantly improved survival rates in Afghanistan is the amount of protection afforded to the individual (body armour) and significantly improved treatment capabilities at every stage of the process. Units deploying to Afghanistan aim to have at least 1 in 2 (and preferably everyone) personnel trained as a team medic. Every patrol is accompagnied by a combat medical technician (mostly of paramedic grade) and in the event of a casualty our MEDEVAC and CASEVAC capabilities are significant. On arrival at hospital they are into one of the best truama centres in the world and from there can be dispatched to the best centre to cope with their particular injuries.

In the Falklands our tolerance of risk was much greater, so less body armour and while the medical chain was world class for its time it was nothing like what we have now.

The situation in AFG is very much more like that in N Ireland in terms of the development of medical TTPs and capabilities and attitude towards risk.

I am glad the Brit army have (finally) got on top of their game in this regard. Back on 6 September 2006 Cpl Wright (later died of wounds) and Sgt Pearson (both of 3 Para) were injured in an unmarked Soviet minefield near Kajaki waited 3 and a half hours for CASEVAC and when it came it was from the US forces who winched their (brave beyond belief) medic down into the minefield to effect the CASEVAC. So the Brits have come a long way since.

I remember being shocked at the time of the Falklands that compared to what we (RLI) had got to (after a steep learning curve from 1972-80) that the Brits were still virtually at the one first field dressing per man level. The South Africans were not much better I might add relying rather on a speedy CASEVAC system (but forgetting in the most serious cases it is the first minutes and seconds that count - that being one of the training problems of a conscript army where you need to squeeze as much operational time out of their service).

[Echo Bravo]

JMA, I disagree with your comment that “The South Africans were not much better...” Each of us carried our own shock pack and our medics were incredibly well trained.

In the early stages of our war, we were definitely unprepared and at that stage, we may not have been any better but as the war progressed, we got better at our medical response. Most heli-casevacs I know of had a doctor on board who took over from the medics.

Yes, we prided ourselves on speedy casevac but we knew that the first few minutes are crucial.

[JMA]

JMA, I disagree with your comment that “The South Africans were not much better...” Each of us carried our own shock pack and our medics were incredibly well trained.

In the early stages of our war, we were definitely unprepared and at that stage, we may not have been any better but as the war progressed, we got better at our medical response. Most heli-casevacs I know of had a doctor on board who took over from the medics.

Yes, we prided ourselves on speedy casevac but we knew that the first few minutes are crucial.

My issue is not with the medical corps personnel.

Its really all comparative isn't it (and depends on the unit). There is no comparison between a medic National Serviceman who does a couple of "bushtrips" in SWA/Angola (during his two years of conscription) and a regular soldier who has been around for 3, 4, 5 years? Having served in 1 Para (1981/2) I had to push the limits of medical training for all troopies by arranging training under a (ex-Brit, ex-Rhodie) sergeant-major medic out of camp (and incorporated in battle camp training) to get all troopies to put drips into each other and give each other jabs. Mine was the only company up till then that did so. Even then there was not enough practice to be sure any/all of the troopies could be relied upon to perform in a contact if needed but it was a psychological boost to believe your buddy (theoretically at any rate) had the ability to get you through the ABCDDE if you needed it... and the CASEVAC system was excellent and the pilots landed close in and under fire if necessary to get the wounded out.

I suggest that it is important that we accept that we could have/should have done better (in this and other regards). The Brits could still do better, the SADF could have done better and so could have the RLI. We lost some troopies then who probably could have been saved... and that remains a tragedy.

[davidbfpo]

A half hour BBC documentary on Wootton Bassett:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0147xdt

Having watched the documentary it has previously unseen and unreported - nationally - footage of respect shown along the route beyond the village.

There is an IPlayer link, so it maybe available across the water.

Carterton, the village near the RAF base where the dead will arrive, starting next month, is likely to replicate the respect shown:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...tion-base.html and: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-soldiers.html

Yes, quite different to the article that appeared at the beginning of this thread, with the title 'War dead are sneaked out of the back gate'.

[JMA]

A half hour BBC documentary on Wootton Bassett:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0147xdt

Having watched the documentary it has previously unseen and unreported - nationally - footage of respect shown along the route beyond the village.

There is an IPlayer link, so it maybe available across the water.

Sadly, not available in the colonies David. Have to keep an eye out on YouTube for its posting there by some thoughtful soul.

[davidbfpo]

A BBC story, with photos and commentary on Royal Wootton Bassett; told well and almost bought a tear to my eyes:

The coffins of 355 fallen military personnel passed through Wootton Bassett between spring 2007 and summer 2011. Close to RAF Lyneham where the bodies were repatriated, the High Street became a focal point for families and friends of the deceased.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20743952

The guest editor on the original radio programme is a well known comedian, Al Murray, but his actual remarks are not readily found.

As a postscript:

....438 deaths among British personnel in Afghanistan since 2001.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20876101

There has not been a British fatality for more than a month in Helmand. In part, it can be explained by the quieter winter - the insurgency is at its most deadly during the hot summer months. But it also reflects the changing role of the British military as they prepare to pull out.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20875497